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Transmission swap

TCinSC

Basic User
City
Waterloo
State
SC
What is the best for the buck trans swap? I have a SR4 behind a 258 I6 in a 1981 CJ8. All stock for now running 31's. I plan to lift to run at least 33's. I want to build a bullet proof DD, mid to lite trail, camping rig. Mostly lite trails and camping with the grandboys and wife. I am looking for dependablity, duribilty, and efficiency. I thought that I wanted a T18 but I have read good things about the NV4500. I am looking for ease of swap also. This is an ongoing project as most are here and on a tight budget. Thanks for any and all inputs.

TC
 

TCinSC

Basic User
City
Waterloo
State
SC
Novak says that the SM465 is the best four speed built and easiest to swap in place of the SR4

TC
 

walkerhoundvm

Just trying to stay upright
Lifetime Member
City
Cave Creek
State
AZ
Can your gears handle the 31s? They must be able to if you still have an SR4.

My personal experiences are negative for the T4/T5 in this situation, but I'm now on a T176 that I have so far been happy with. I also debated a T18, but in the end a T176 was available and I went with it.

The things you need to consider are the costs of a transmission, how much it will take to rebuild (I'd have to recommend rebuilding anything unless you really really trust the seller on condition), a new bellhousing, new driveshafts, a new transmission tunnel cover, shifters, and some other small parts.

I honestly don't know how well the SM465 crosses over and cuts any of those costs, but I can say that the T176 requires you to consider replacing all of those things for a cost between $1000-1500. The swap was pretty easy as far as removing and replacing a transmission goes. It's a headache no matter what way you look at it. Messing it up and having to do it twice is twice the headache.
 

bobbysjeep

Legacy Registered User
City
Charlotte
State
NC
I put a T18 in a CJ7 that I used to own. It was a pretty big job due to the fact that you had to replace the main shaft so it would mate to 300 transfer case. And even though it was a four speed, first gear is unsynchronized, so basically it was a three speed. If I had it to do over I would go with the T176 or the NV4500. Don't get me wrong the T18 was bulletproof, granny gear was awesome on the trail but the street driveability suffered.
 
Last edited:

jims chop shop

Scrambler Junkie
Lifetime Member
City
stafford
State
va
I have a narrow-trac dana 44 in va from a commando
Direct bolt in for an 81 cj
$200
3.73 ( "may" need ring ang pinion)
 

TCinSC

Basic User
City
Waterloo
State
SC
Dang! These replies sure have made me relize that there is more to a swap than just sliding in another trans. Novac will be glad to sell me a SM465 with adapter for Dana300 for a cool $1870. Might be rebuilding the SR4 for now. LOL! Thank you all for the insight. All I have done to the jeep so far is getting it running and road worthy. I am going to dig deeper into it so that I know exactly what I have and what I can do to make it better.

TC
 

wm69

Scrambler Junkie
Silver Member
Lifetime Member
City
God's Country
State
AR
I certainly wouldn't put a dime in an SR4. Find a T176 or even a T4/T5. T176 would be preferable. If you get a transmission that originally came with CJ's you can get the parts needed to do the swap used and hopefully cheap.
 

Grantshire

Legacy Registered User
Member
City
Richmond
State
VA
We live in an overdrive world these days and I would not put a non OD manual in a rig that is driven regularly on the road for any distance. As Jim said the T5 is the easiest swap behind the 258, did it on my 81.

My desired wheeling with Scrambler was pretty much in line with what you described and I thought the NT axles were scary on the highway so addressed them first. With grand kids on board I would recommend you do the same. I got rid of my NT CJ axles with crappy 2.72 gears and upgraded to FSJ Dana 44's.

I picked up a T5 and had a local transmission shop that built racing transmissions do a bench build with World Class T5 parts (can be done with only one washer/spacer different - saw every part side by side on his bench). Another option is an AX15, they can be used as is but you will need a $100 adapter ring to mate the Dana 300 to it.
They are considered medium duty but are very strong and will take about anything you can dish out in a 6 cylinder CJ. I am not a NV4500 fan for a CJ, too big and too wide ratio for street use. NV3500 is not much better, most I seen have noise issues in 2nd or 3rd.

Once you have the something with OD gear your axles lower, for a 258 I prefer 3.73 or 4.10 with 33" tires, 4.30 for 35". Anything steeper than 4.30 (Isuzu thick ring Dana 44 gears) with have a negative impact on highway speeds. I geared mine 4.10 for 33" tires, then went with 35" tires. It struggles to maintain 70 mph in 5th gear on the slightest hill with a couple of people and gear on board.
 

Chipster1990

Back in the game!!
BENEFACTOR
Gold Member
Lifetime Member
SOA Member
City
Birmingham
State
AL
Not to hijack this thread but on the same subject....
I have a the 258 paired with the T176 and Dana 300. If I swap to the T5, what other adapters do I need to make the swap?


 

wm69

Scrambler Junkie
Silver Member
Lifetime Member
City
God's Country
State
AR
You'll need different driveshafts, move the skid plate back one set of holes in the frame, tunnel cover/shift boots.

No way would I give up a T176 for a T5. I have both, and I have an extra T176 in the shop that will go in my T5 equipped Jeep when I get around to it or the T5 dies, whichever comes first.

Look at spankrjs thread and you'll see a Jeep eat 3 T5's in short order. They are fine for a highway only Jeep running stock 29" tires, but that's about it. My MPG are no better in my T5 equipped Jeep running 60 up and down the highway that my T176 equipped Jeep. I guess if you were driving interstates at 70-75 the OD might be useful, but at 60 and below the T5 makes no sense whatsoever.
 

walkerhoundvm

Just trying to stay upright
Lifetime Member
City
Cave Creek
State
AZ
JC man, don't do it! The T176 is a whiz to rebuild on your kitchen counter.

Not to hijack this thread but on the same subject....
I have a the 258 paired with the T176 and Dana 300. If I swap to the T5, what other adapters do I need to make the swap?
 

Chipster1990

Back in the game!!
BENEFACTOR
Gold Member
Lifetime Member
SOA Member
City
Birmingham
State
AL
Thanks for the input. I'll just keep the T176. Now I need to find someone to rebuild it, and fast!


 

walkerhoundvm

Just trying to stay upright
Lifetime Member
City
Cave Creek
State
AZ
youcandoit-1.jpg



It took me about a day to do once I had all of the kit parts and tools. The most specialized tool you'll need is a feeler gauge. The rest of it you can get at Home Depot - PVC and conduit, some twine, vaseline.
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
Lifetime Member
SOA Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
The T176 is simple to rebuild. If you have some basic skills, no problem:twocents:

If you swap in a T176 to replace a T4/T5/SR4, you will need the following parts for a complete "bolt in swap":

1) Transmission
2) Bell housing
3) Drive shafts
4) Dana 300 shifter handle for a T176
5) T176 reverse light harness
6) T176 floor plate
7) T176/Dana 300 combination shifter boot

I kept all of the above in the back of my Scrambler when I went to the Kentucky National event a few years back when I was still running a T5:twocents:

I blew three T5's which were subjected to moderate use/abuse with 33's and MPI equipped 4.2. For a stock Jeep/stock tires they are fine. You can upgrade gears and spend all kinds of money on "upgraded parts", but there is nothing you can do about the little sliver of case material located between the front input shaft bearing and the front cluster bearing. I have three broke cases in my garage, with the corresponding wiped out cluster gears/main shafts:twocents: All three of my T5's blew up on the highway, just cruising in 5th gear at around 75 mph.

Depending on axle gears/tire size/engine health, overdrive might not even be necessary:twocents: I bought and drove my "now red Scrambler" from Indiana back to Biloxi, MS with a T176, healthy 4.2, 32" tires, and 3.31 gears. I got around 17-18 mpg on I65 the entire trip home. "Yard Scrambler" is set up the same, same performance. Neither Jeep is/was a "rock crawler, but for daily driving, light to moderate off road use, and highway use, I don't know how much more you could want:twocents:

The T176 is a much stronger transmission then any of the other three 80's CJ manual transmissions. The parts are bigger, and in a transmission, bigger gears/shafts is generally better. The T176 main shaft runs on ball bearings, the others on taper roller bearings. The T176 case is much stronger/thicker/heavier.

The "granny gear" 4 speeds are probably stronger then a T176. I had a T18 in my old CJ7. They are tough, but I eventually wore out/damaged my T18, resulting in a full rebuild. The "granny trannies" are not as fun/useful for daily driving. The T176 uses all four gears, easy/close shifts. The HD 4 speeds have long throws, and you typically drive them as 3 speeds on road. Depending on power/tire size/gearing, this can result in sluggish performance.

The only problem I have with the T176's is the sloppy feel of the shifter. The shifter parts wear out over time. The crappy non OEM replacement parts suck. But, as long as the shifter parts are good, the T176 shifts fine.

I have a T5 in my stock green Scrambler. I like it there, it shifts nice. This Scrambler does not see hard use. It should live. It has 125,000 miles on it, so it is time for a "pre-emptive rebuild".

I now have a 4:1 first gear AX15 in my red Scrambler. I love it. The ratios and shifting characteristics are almost identical to a T5, BUT the transmission is much stronger:twocents: If you drove my red Scrambler and did not know I swapped the transmission, you would think it was a T5.

Before doing a swap, maybe rebuild what you have. What you have for your uses might be fine. A rebuild can buy you time to find all the parts/save up $$$ for a future swap:twocents:

As for the MPG gains of the overdrive transmission, depends:twocents: Low axle gears will almost certainly require an Overdrive, unless you want to drive slow on the interstate. My "real world experience here:

1) Carbed 4.2, 3.31 gears, T176, 32" tires = 17-18mpg at 75mph (two separate Scramblers like this)
2) Carbed 4.2, 4.10 gears, T176, 35" tires = 15-16mpg at 70-75mph
3) MPI 4.2, 4.10 gears, T176, 33" tires= 16-17mpg at 65-70mph
4) MPI 4.2, 4.10 gears, AX15/T5, 33" tires = 16-18mpg at 75-80mph

It all depends on how far you want to go, how fast, how much RPM you want to spin, how much gas you want to burn:twocents:

Another important factor to think about: what type of geography do you do most of your highway driving at. If you live somewhere really hilly, at altitude, with long steep grades, and you run a 6 cylinder with conservative axle gears and tire size, OD might be a waste:twocents:

I swapped in the AX15 into my red Scrambler because I drive it cross country and I want to drive fast. When I had the T176, it drove fine on the highway, and got the same MPG as the OD tranny IF I kept it between 60-65mph. The OD only allows me to go faster. I still burn almost the same amount of fuel. A Scrambler is a brick. No way around it. Unless you do a bunch of highway driving, it might never make economic sense to do a transmission swap.

Keep records of how you drive your Jeep, and the MPG. You might just find that not having OD is not the end of the world, unless you want to go fast, or have low axle gears.
 

wm69

Scrambler Junkie
Silver Member
Lifetime Member
City
God's Country
State
AR
Another important factor to think about: what type of geography do you do most of your highway driving at. If you live somewhere really hilly, at altitude, with long steep grades, and you run a 6 cylinder with conservative axle gears and tire size, OD might be a waste:twocents:
I found this to be very true when I lived in NW Arkansas. When I drove the CJ on the highway up there (3:31's and 31x10.50s) I couldn't stay in OD. Had to keep it in 4th on just about any hill. Now around here in the Delta where it's so flat you can watch your dog run away for three days, I can use OD on the highway, but again, I don't see any great MPG savings to speak of. Of course, the speed limit is 55 or 60 everywhere around here, so not talking any real highway speeds around here.

I'd rebuild the T176. I've been bookmarking pages for a while.

http://www.oconeeoffroad.com/Jeep-T176-T177-Master-Overhaul-Kit-for-1980-86-CJ_p_109835.html

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=136257


http://civilianjeep.info/Strenk/T-176/t-176.pdf


http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/uprading-t-176-t-177-a-971945/
 

walkerhoundvm

Just trying to stay upright
Lifetime Member
City
Cave Creek
State
AZ
It really is so gosh darn easy. If you have the ability to pull the trans yourself, you have the ability to rebuild it. There's a set of Craftsman ring splitters you need, and I would recommend having someone press the bearings out for you - unless you have the top notch bearing splitter/puller. The one I bought from Harbor Freight was just a $20 piece of Chinese crap.

The ifsja and Strenk pages are what I used. Great pictures and great original documents.

The only problem I have with the T176's is the sloppy feel of the shifter. The shifter parts wear out over time. The crappy non OEM replacement parts suck. But, as long as the shifter parts are good, the T176 shifts fine.

Me too - I even bought a "NOS" repair kit from Collins Bros, and it didn't help one bit. It's a little sloppy, but I've gotten used to it pretty quick.
 

wm69

Scrambler Junkie
Silver Member
Lifetime Member
City
God's Country
State
AR
It really is so gosh darn easy. If you have the ability to pull the trans yourself, you have the ability to rebuild it. There's a set of Craftsman ring splitters you need, and I would recommend having someone press the bearings out for you - unless you have the top notch bearing splitter/puller. The one I bought from Harbor Freight was just a $20 piece of Chinese crap.

The ifsja and Strenk pages are what I used. Great pictures and great original documents.

Me too - I even bought a "NOS" repair kit from Collins Bros, and it didn't help one bit. It's a little sloppy, but I've gotten used to it pretty quick.

I've been driving the Scrambler today. Another milestone passed. Needless to say I was thinking of this thread when I was shifting that super notchy/clicky unworn T176 vs the one in my Green '7 that is a bit broken in.

IMG_7573.jpg
 

urchinhead

Basic User
Member
City
San Francisco
State
CA
This is an old thread, but I did not find a more recent one.

The SR4 in my AMC 258 Scrambler is one of the reasons the prior owner let it go. I pulled it out this weekend and found why. The pilot bushing was ovaled after someone put a center force clutch in and failed to align the bellhousing. The shaft has lots of play, and I am not going to rebuild it. I found an allegedly OK T-5 on eBay and plan to swap in in for daily driver use before the real build begins.

My question for someone with experience is - can I order a new clutch kit for an ‘83 CJ and just use that, or will I need a different pilot bushing? It seems that the 258 cranks should all be the same, but the SR4 has a 1 1/16” snout and the T-5 has a 1 1/8” snout. Does that sound correct?

i was looking at Ram clutch part # 88432.
 

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