dealingdave
Basic User
I am just seeking opinions here and I am not offering a title or vin for sale. What is the "hypothetical" value of a clear Scrambler title and VIN plate?
Dave
Dave
Value of Title and VIN Plate??
- Thread starter dealingdave
- Start date
dealingdave
Basic User
I figured there might be something illegal about it, since I noticed that the Classified area does not allow titles for sale. I don't know what you mean by "State Level"? Is SOSPD a state trooper or the head of the Illinois DMV?
The reason I am asking this question is that I have a solid Scrambler frame and clear title-vin in my name. The people that inquired about it want to buy just the frame and don't have a use-need for the title-vin. Then they expect some kind of discount if they leave the title-vin behind. Is selling a frame without the title and vin even legal?
Any ideas what the going price for a solid Scrambler frame, title and VIN?
Dave
The reason I am asking this question is that I have a solid Scrambler frame and clear title-vin in my name. The people that inquired about it want to buy just the frame and don't have a use-need for the title-vin. Then they expect some kind of discount if they leave the title-vin behind. Is selling a frame without the title and vin even legal?
Any ideas what the going price for a solid Scrambler frame, title and VIN?
Dave
Just sell the title with the frame and be done with it, to my understanding it has to go with either the frame or the body. If you sell without it, from a legal standpoint you have a nothing.
Others will disagree but for a very good frame with vin and title I would pay no more than $400 but I am cheap!
Others will disagree but for a very good frame with vin and title I would pay no more than $400 but I am cheap!
- City
- Middle of No Where and Too Far From Any Where
- State
- Tn
STATE LEVEL
Let's just say that he's in the upper level of law enforcement,sell the frame and destroy the vin and title that way you should be in the clear-SOSPD you have any input on that?-JC
Let's just say that he's in the upper level of law enforcement,sell the frame and destroy the vin and title that way you should be in the clear-SOSPD you have any input on that?-JC
Dave,
I am an Investigator with the Illinois Secretary of State Police and we, among other things, regulate the automotive industry in Illinois.
In Illinois it is considered a felony to possess a vin plate that is not attached to the vehicle. If you sell your vehicle, the title / vin plate should remain with the vehicle.
When this law is applied to a specific situation,"intent" has to be considered. Basically if you unbolt the vin, when you are restoring the vehicle to more or less it's original form, and bolt it back on you should be okay. If you unbolt the vin, with the intent to allow somebody else to use it, than you are in trouble.
Hope this helps
Bill
I am an Investigator with the Illinois Secretary of State Police and we, among other things, regulate the automotive industry in Illinois.
In Illinois it is considered a felony to possess a vin plate that is not attached to the vehicle. If you sell your vehicle, the title / vin plate should remain with the vehicle.
When this law is applied to a specific situation,"intent" has to be considered. Basically if you unbolt the vin, when you are restoring the vehicle to more or less it's original form, and bolt it back on you should be okay. If you unbolt the vin, with the intent to allow somebody else to use it, than you are in trouble.
Hope this helps
Bill
- City
- Lexington
- State
- SC
more clarification
This is actually a very good thread and I am glad we actually started it. It is a really gray area sometimes as far as what we all morally and legally should do with parted out vehicles we sometimes deal with. I have wondered about the very specifics of this in regards to the legal aspect of it. And I am so glad we have someone that is legitimately an expert on the topic. So, since we do, I'm going to fire away all my questions. I'll give a couple of different scenarios of things that may happen in buildups of Jeeps and/or Scramblers.
That certainly does make sense in regards to when the law is applied to a specific situation, "intent" is taken into consideration.
Bill, help us out if you can and give us your recommendations on the following situations.
1. For more clarification in regards to the title & VIN going with the frame vs the body tub? Is it "legal" to sell just a body tub with the VIN and title (and No frame at all)? (Party A has a body tub, VIN, and title that all do match. HE is a legitimate seller with no intent to circulate stolen parts or defraud titles, he just has a parted out Scrambler. For whatever reason, either using the frame for something else or it was rusted, or whatever, he has an extra legitimate body tub, title & VIN that do match. HE just wants to sell them. Can he legally? And if so, what precautions, legal issues are there with it?
2. Is it legal to sell just the body tub? (without a VIN, title, or frame)? (Scenario, guy buys a scrambler and rebuilds it from the ground up but wants to replace the OEM tub with a aluminum tub, thereby keeping the original frame, VIN, title for himself to rebuild that same vehicle. He has an extra body tub that certainly has some value and his intent is NOT to defraud or circulate stolen body parts, he just wants to recoup some money and sell the body tub)
3. What if someone buys an aftermarket frame, aftermarket body tub, and they already have a legitimate CJ7 with a good CJ7 title. They then proceed to transfer over all of their CJ7 over to this new CJ8 aftermarket tub and frame. They also transfer over the VIN and title. Is this person legal, or should they have applied for a "kit" car title?
This is actually a very good thread and I am glad we actually started it. It is a really gray area sometimes as far as what we all morally and legally should do with parted out vehicles we sometimes deal with. I have wondered about the very specifics of this in regards to the legal aspect of it. And I am so glad we have someone that is legitimately an expert on the topic. So, since we do, I'm going to fire away all my questions. I'll give a couple of different scenarios of things that may happen in buildups of Jeeps and/or Scramblers.
That certainly does make sense in regards to when the law is applied to a specific situation, "intent" is taken into consideration.
Bill, help us out if you can and give us your recommendations on the following situations.
1. For more clarification in regards to the title & VIN going with the frame vs the body tub? Is it "legal" to sell just a body tub with the VIN and title (and No frame at all)? (Party A has a body tub, VIN, and title that all do match. HE is a legitimate seller with no intent to circulate stolen parts or defraud titles, he just has a parted out Scrambler. For whatever reason, either using the frame for something else or it was rusted, or whatever, he has an extra legitimate body tub, title & VIN that do match. HE just wants to sell them. Can he legally? And if so, what precautions, legal issues are there with it?
2. Is it legal to sell just the body tub? (without a VIN, title, or frame)? (Scenario, guy buys a scrambler and rebuilds it from the ground up but wants to replace the OEM tub with a aluminum tub, thereby keeping the original frame, VIN, title for himself to rebuild that same vehicle. He has an extra body tub that certainly has some value and his intent is NOT to defraud or circulate stolen body parts, he just wants to recoup some money and sell the body tub)
3. What if someone buys an aftermarket frame, aftermarket body tub, and they already have a legitimate CJ7 with a good CJ7 title. They then proceed to transfer over all of their CJ7 over to this new CJ8 aftermarket tub and frame. They also transfer over the VIN and title. Is this person legal, or should they have applied for a "kit" car title?
This is according to Illinois, other states may vary so you may need to ask there. These questions pertain more towards Secretary of State policy than Illinois law, which means they are in a "gray" area and on a case by case basis.
In all the questions you asked the end result would be your jeep being registered as a "specially constructed" vehicle. Anytime a vehicle is "constructed" in Illinois, the title will reflect the year and manufacturer of the "frame" IE... 2003 Specially Constructed 4WHDR (frame manufacturer). If you obtain a frame from another vehicle it will reflect that year / make IE...your 1986 jeep becomes a 1981 Specially Constructed Jeep.
If you are replacing a body with a new one, the title will remain the same except it will show "specially constructed" IE.. your 1986 jeep will become a 1986 specially constructed jeep.
The new vin number for both above situations will be generated from the Secretary of State and be attached by one of my brother officers.
One thing to remember, every major part on your jeep contains a "con" number (confidential number). This is usually a portion of the vin number stamped into the part in specific locations. The vast majority of people will buy jeep parts, never change the title information, or record the vin number/owner information from the seller. It is important to remember that you record the vin number of the vehicle and the person you bought it from and keep it. If your ebay part is ever reported stolen, and it is found on your vehicle, you won't be held responsible for possession of a stolen part.
Questions
If a person has title to a complete scrambler and decides to part it out the title should stay with the frame.
If you sell the body to somebody, do not remove the vin plate, and give them a photocopy of your title. This is mainly for their records so they can account for where they got the body.
If you acquire a new manufactured body for your existing jeep it becomes the specially constructed vehicle.
I do agree it is kind of stupid to voluntarily apply for a specially constructed title, and lose any value a complete 1986 scrambler has, just to replace the body but that is how it's setup in Illinois.
Hope this helps
In all the questions you asked the end result would be your jeep being registered as a "specially constructed" vehicle. Anytime a vehicle is "constructed" in Illinois, the title will reflect the year and manufacturer of the "frame" IE... 2003 Specially Constructed 4WHDR (frame manufacturer). If you obtain a frame from another vehicle it will reflect that year / make IE...your 1986 jeep becomes a 1981 Specially Constructed Jeep.
If you are replacing a body with a new one, the title will remain the same except it will show "specially constructed" IE.. your 1986 jeep will become a 1986 specially constructed jeep.
The new vin number for both above situations will be generated from the Secretary of State and be attached by one of my brother officers.
One thing to remember, every major part on your jeep contains a "con" number (confidential number). This is usually a portion of the vin number stamped into the part in specific locations. The vast majority of people will buy jeep parts, never change the title information, or record the vin number/owner information from the seller. It is important to remember that you record the vin number of the vehicle and the person you bought it from and keep it. If your ebay part is ever reported stolen, and it is found on your vehicle, you won't be held responsible for possession of a stolen part.
Questions
If a person has title to a complete scrambler and decides to part it out the title should stay with the frame.
If you sell the body to somebody, do not remove the vin plate, and give them a photocopy of your title. This is mainly for their records so they can account for where they got the body.
If you acquire a new manufactured body for your existing jeep it becomes the specially constructed vehicle.
I do agree it is kind of stupid to voluntarily apply for a specially constructed title, and lose any value a complete 1986 scrambler has, just to replace the body but that is how it's setup in Illinois.
Hope this helps
- City
- Lexington
- State
- SC
Great clarification Bill.
I agree with you in regards to if you are rebuilding a complete Jeep with a good real title, and then you rebuild it with a new tub, and technically, you should obtain/apply for a different type title. I agree with you in the respect that, I think you shouldn't have to do that and many people probably do not, but technically you should.
I have been known to really irritate people with my "what ifs". Thanks for answering them all.
Makes me wonder. If you buy a new frame from Advanced frameworks or somewhere like that do they provide you with some type of Serial number or something that you then apply for a different type title?
matt
I agree with you in regards to if you are rebuilding a complete Jeep with a good real title, and then you rebuild it with a new tub, and technically, you should obtain/apply for a different type title. I agree with you in the respect that, I think you shouldn't have to do that and many people probably do not, but technically you should.
I have been known to really irritate people with my "what ifs". Thanks for answering them all.
Makes me wonder. If you buy a new frame from Advanced frameworks or somewhere like that do they provide you with some type of Serial number or something that you then apply for a different type title?
matt
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
"Makes me wonder. If you buy a new frame from Advanced frameworks or somewhere like that do they provide you with some type of Serial number or something that you then apply for a different type title?"
Some manufacturers will give you a title and some only a receipt.
I have often thought about the cost involved to buy every individual part for a Scrambler and build one from scratch. Not using any used parts, only new off the shelf. If I did this, in addition to spending a ton of money, I would need to keep the receipts for all the "Essential Parts". When the construction is completed I take this vehicle, and all the receipts, to our inspection station. The Investigator inspects the vehicle, compares the receipts with what's on the vehicle, and assigns a new VIN. This Vin is attached to the vehicle and I drive out with a 2003 Specially Constructed Advanced Frameworks vehicle.
Some manufacturers will give you a title and some only a receipt.
I have often thought about the cost involved to buy every individual part for a Scrambler and build one from scratch. Not using any used parts, only new off the shelf. If I did this, in addition to spending a ton of money, I would need to keep the receipts for all the "Essential Parts". When the construction is completed I take this vehicle, and all the receipts, to our inspection station. The Investigator inspects the vehicle, compares the receipts with what's on the vehicle, and assigns a new VIN. This Vin is attached to the vehicle and I drive out with a 2003 Specially Constructed Advanced Frameworks vehicle.
