i generally am one to just sit back an read one here but this time i feel like i can give some valuable input... i would like you to do a few things so i can help you. im going to go through this as im speaking to someone with no mechanical background so please don't get offended. First unlock the steering column by turning the key to run, open the hood and grab ahold of the top of the steering shaft at the top joint up close to the firewall then reach inside and turn the steering wheel... is there play where the wheel will turn before the shaft turns? if so the joint inside the column is worn out (ive only seen this a couple times in the past 20 yrs) it is easy to rebuild and i can walk you through it if needed. if that checks out then turn the top of the steering shaft by hand at the top joint under the hood and see if there is any play in the steering shaft by holding the input shaft of the gearbox. if there is any play then your shaft is bad (i know you said its new but just taking you through the whole process) now grab the coupler on the input shaft at he gearbox and ensure that it is tight with no side to side play. if its loose tighten the nut on the coupler. now turn the input shaft by hand by holding the gearbox side of the steering shaft when you doo this look at the pitman arm how much can you turn the input before the pitman arm starts moving (there should be some play but only minimal) its kind of hard to tell how much play there actually is so take you time and ensure that the play is in the gearbox. you check it by holding the pitman arm while turning the gearbox input you should be able to "feel" how much play is in the gearbox should be no more than a 16th of a turn but you should have some play, too tight and it can cause oversteer. steering boxes can be adjusted i can walk you though that if needed. Next jack up the front axle and put both sides on jack stands check all four rod ends for play, the rod ends should rotate but there should be no play either side to side or up and down, if you find any play change the rod ends. now while the jeep is jacked up grab the top and bottom of a tire, push in on the top and pull out on the bottom the tire will try to turn side to side but hold the tire straight and try to shake the tire up and down any up and down play means either loose or bad wheel bearings or bad ball joints if the rotor and the tire move but not the steering knuckle then its bearings if the knuckle moves its bad ball joints. check both sides... If all that checks out then we can move on if something is bad fix whatever it is... now i have a couple questions, you have said you have 4.5" lift on your jeep. do you have the factory shackles or extended ones? do you have wheel spacers? are you running wider wheels or factory ones? if aftermarket do you know the width and offset? i would also like you to do one last thing with the jeep on flat concrete start the engine and look out the window/door and look at the front tires with the tires straight i want you to turn the steering wheel slightly both directions. you will probably notice that the whole tire moves to the left or right in relation to the front fender before the tires start to turn... how much does it move from far left to right?
Oversteering woes
- Thread starter JeepWillis
- Start date
- City
- Yuba City
- State
- CA
Here are a few pics that JeepWillis sent me:
#1 - Gratuitous side shot (nice rig)!
#2 - Front shot, Everything looks in order, except that drag-link angle...
#3 - Then I noticed there's a trac-bar in there! I've never seen one in a CJ before, but now the drag-link angle looks more reasonable.
#4 - a closer look at the trac-bar mount. Probably not pertinent to the issue, but interesting to me.
I'll let JeepWillis fill you in on today's activities, which include removing the trac-bar....
#1 - Gratuitous side shot (nice rig)!
#2 - Front shot, Everything looks in order, except that drag-link angle...
#3 - Then I noticed there's a trac-bar in there! I've never seen one in a CJ before, but now the drag-link angle looks more reasonable.
#4 - a closer look at the trac-bar mount. Probably not pertinent to the issue, but interesting to me.
I'll let JeepWillis fill you in on today's activities, which include removing the trac-bar....
mysunnshine
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Phoenix
- State
- AZ
I run a track bar on mine. It's the greatest thing on the road to tighten up lift springs.....Shoot, I even wheel with mine on there....
- City
- Aurora
- State
- CO
Personally I cringe every time I hear someone say "I adjusted the steering gear". Seems to do more harm than good in most cases. They should come pre-adjusted (new or rebuilt). Only time I've ever had to make an adjustment to a gear box was after it had 100k miles+ and it was getting sloppy/worn.
JeepWillis
Basic User
- City
- Austin
- State
- Tx
Took it to the Jeep shop this morning, everyone rolled their eyes when I drove up. I made the head mechanic drive it with me in it, he was putting around on a side street behind the shop going 30mph. I laughed and said let's take it on on a main road, get it up to 40-50 and you see if you can keep it in a lane. He did, and I watched in amusement as he over steered the crap out of her to attempt to keep her straight. He even had to throw both hands on the wheel a couple of times, then he realized it worked better when there were no hands on the wheel!
So, we went back inside, they decided what the hell, it's either out of alignment or the bearings are catching. Lifted it up, took the trac-bar off just because why not. Took off the hubs and we're happy to see the bearings were in great shape and nice and lubed up. Decided that they wanted to toe-in the front a little bit, it was too straight on for them and they think this may be the reason for the wander. Adjusted tie rod to toe-in and sent me on my way.
I then drove it right down the street to an alignment shop and asked to put it on the rack. I have an appointment at 730am tomorrow with their most experienced/veteran(25 yrs) technicians. So he should be able to get all the readings for me and I'll post for you guys. The last time I had it aligned(10 months ago) the shop told me everything was tightened up and put within spec and they recommended I replace the steering gear box. At that point I had the box replaced twice and a new steering shaft and bushing, along with tie rod end.
It seems I've come full circle.
HILARIOUS
So, we went back inside, they decided what the hell, it's either out of alignment or the bearings are catching. Lifted it up, took the trac-bar off just because why not. Took off the hubs and we're happy to see the bearings were in great shape and nice and lubed up. Decided that they wanted to toe-in the front a little bit, it was too straight on for them and they think this may be the reason for the wander. Adjusted tie rod to toe-in and sent me on my way.
I then drove it right down the street to an alignment shop and asked to put it on the rack. I have an appointment at 730am tomorrow with their most experienced/veteran(25 yrs) technicians. So he should be able to get all the readings for me and I'll post for you guys. The last time I had it aligned(10 months ago) the shop told me everything was tightened up and put within spec and they recommended I replace the steering gear box. At that point I had the box replaced twice and a new steering shaft and bushing, along with tie rod end.
It seems I've come full circle.
HILARIOUS
If I'm seeing what you guys are calling a track bar (mounts to steering gear with gold bracket), that's a brace for the steering gear. Helps stabilize the gear box to reduce chance of cracking the frame (especially with larger tires). The drag link has too much angle to it. Should try to run as parallel to tie rod bar as you can. Needs a dropped pitman arm or do a tie rod flip at the knuckle to help bring it in. Here's the cj8 I'm doing with the 4.5" lift, you can see the dropped pitman are to help reduce the angle.
Here's pics of before and after with the tie rod end of the drag link. Raises the drag link up at the knuckle end by 2 to 3" to help balance the drag link out.
Sorry pics are reversed. If I remember when I go to shop in morning I'll get a pic from front of drag link to show better.
Sorry pics are reversed. If I remember when I go to shop in morning I'll get a pic from front of drag link to show better.
Last edited:
- City
- Yuba City
- State
- CA
The trac-bar is behind all the steering stuff in this photo, right in front of the shock absorber. It attaches to the axle on the passenger side, loops over the diff, and attaches to the frame on the driver's side. This locates the axle laterally in relation to the frame. You don't typically see this with a leaf spring setup, because the leaf springs to a pretty good job of locating the axle by themselves. However, as mysunnshine mentioned a few posts back, apparently it can be helpful when you have high lift/high arch springs.
When using a trac-bar, you want your drag link to be as parallel as possible to the trac-bar. Otherwise, I agree with you, and the drag link should be as parallel as possible to the tie-rod and axle.
My preference regarding Jeepwillis's setup, would be to:
A) ditch the trac-bar, and flip the drag-link to the top of the knuckle, or
B) use the trac-bar, and get a "Z-bend" drag link, to flatten out the angle of the tie-rod ends.
Heavy-duty drag-link and tie-rods wouldn't hurt either... those are huge tires!
Last edited:
- City
- Olathe
- State
- KS
Isn't the reason the MORE HD box mount moves the box forward 1" to help compensate for the longer arm on drop pitman arms?
I think JW stated they had a drop pitman on it, but put the stock one back on. I know when I did my springs last spring (wow); it took a lot of trial and error to get the drag link flat but still keep it from hitting at all angles....
I think JW stated they had a drop pitman on it, but put the stock one back on. I know when I did my springs last spring (wow); it took a lot of trial and error to get the drag link flat but still keep it from hitting at all angles....
JeepWillis
Basic User
- City
- Austin
- State
- Tx
Tower, you're right. I did have a drop pitman that came with my 4"BDS lift. The shop didn't like the angle, so went back with the stock arm last week. Didn't solve anything.
I have a MORE HD steering brace, and a track bar as Pilot mentioned. My tires are 33s.
I have a MORE HD steering brace, and a track bar as Pilot mentioned. My tires are 33s.
Damm, must have been blind last night, never saw the track bar and couldn't figure out how someone could think the steering brace was a bar. When you take her to a good alignment shop they should catch the angle of the drag link. Take the dropped pitman bar with you incase they want to put back on. I would get rid of the track bar also. Only try putting it on after everything is aligned correctly (only to solve a problem that you can't find a solution to). Right now just another potential problem.
4miles
CJ-8 Member
- City
- Virginia Beach
- State
- VA
Have you tried lowering your tire pressure? On my JK I have to lower the pressure to about 26 psi to avoid what you are describing. You can chalk your tires to find the pressure that will keep the tires flat on the ground. It is best to start a little high and lower to where you are using close to the whole width of the tire. If that is a 7" rim and 32 psi it could be contributing to what you are experiencing.
JeepWillis
Basic User
- City
- Austin
- State
- Tx
Yes I have, and they're 15x8s.
JeepWillis
Basic User
- City
- Austin
- State
- Tx
Update:
Bought an H1 gear box, had it installed, had 2 alignments, the shop did the alignment but wasn't happy with it so they sent it out to a frame shop that specializes in older vehicles. Just went to the shop to pick it up, the shop wasn't happy, I drove it and it's unsafe. Way too sensitive, and seiously unsafe at anything higher than 40mph. So I had them cut the belt to run it without power steering. Now it drives like a cement truck, no turning at all and still kinda finds a line in the road and takes it.
The official count:
3 CJ steering boxes
1 H1 steering box
3 sets of ubolts
2 tie rod ends
1 set of 6 degree shims
1 trac bar removed
1 HD steering shaft
1 steering shaft bearing
6 alignments
= $3,947
Original problem still there...
Bought an H1 gear box, had it installed, had 2 alignments, the shop did the alignment but wasn't happy with it so they sent it out to a frame shop that specializes in older vehicles. Just went to the shop to pick it up, the shop wasn't happy, I drove it and it's unsafe. Way too sensitive, and seiously unsafe at anything higher than 40mph. So I had them cut the belt to run it without power steering. Now it drives like a cement truck, no turning at all and still kinda finds a line in the road and takes it.
The official count:
3 CJ steering boxes
1 H1 steering box
3 sets of ubolts
2 tie rod ends
1 set of 6 degree shims
1 trac bar removed
1 HD steering shaft
1 steering shaft bearing
6 alignments
= $3,947
Original problem still there...
- City
- Aurora
- State
- CO
Looking at some of your photos, it appears like the front shackles are slanted outward at the spring ends (looks "Bow-legged" from the front). To me that would indicate a possible frame problem (maybe the frame has bent like an hour glass... narrow in the middle and spread wide at the ends.
Do you know what if anything the frame shop did?
Do you know what if anything the frame shop did?
JeepWillis
Basic User
- City
- Austin
- State
- Tx
I see what you're saying. It's mostly just the passenger side just a tad, I've brought that up a few time and nobody seems concerned about it at all. Especially after installing new u-bolts and alignment at the frame shop.
- City
- Aurora
- State
- CO
If the frame shop did a real inspection they should have provided a list of measurements they took at various points on the frame (to determine if the rails are straight, parallel/perpendicular, and have correct spread/separation. I'd be curious to know what the exact numbers are.