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Help me settle on an engine

walkerhoundvm

walkerhoundvm

Just trying to stay upright
Lifetime Member
City
Cave Creek
State
AZ
Later this year I'll be going through a ground up resto-mod, and I've been ignoring my engine for cost savings. Now it seems to be the weakest link. It's got probably 40-50k on it since an alleged rebuild prior to me owning it, a Howell tbi, team rush, a new oil pan and valve cover, but after I'm done I'd like to be able to drive it regularly to work, take it camping, tow a small pop up camper, etc. I just don't feel like I can do that right now.

I'll have 33"s, 3.73 gearing, a rear dana 44, the dana 300 and the t177 I'd like to keep. I want 50 state legal, turnkey, mild power, clean looks.

What are my best options - in terms of cost effectiveness and reasonable replacements? I see them as:
1) rebuild current, leave as is.
2) rebuild, swap in mpi +/- stroker (if that still leaves me legal)
3) complete 4.0 junkyard rebuild +/- stroker if legal
4) aftermarket 4.7 if it's legal
5) LS engine
6) SBC

The last two I worry about adapters and my sudden exposure to an unfamiliar engine.

What would you do? Keep in mind that considerations are cost effectiveness, ease of finding and installing, and street legality. Originality is there, but rather low on the list considering.

Edit: should add that my optimal budget is in the $4-5k range or less.
 
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For cost effectiveness, parts, driveability, blah blah blah.....it's REALLY hard to beat an LS swap. However, may or may not be legal issues depending on where you are, and I wouldn't trust the T177. Adapters wouldn't be hard as there are T176/177 to SBC bells out there from the Iron Duke Jeeps (I have one of the bells), but I don't think the trans would take the power potential of a V8 reliably. An AX15 should hold up to mild power and give you the benefit of OD which would help driveability greatly.

If LS is a bit much, I would probably suggest a stroker I6 with aftermarket MPI on it, like a Holley Sniper or something with more infinite tuning options and closed loop standalone protocol that isn't as finicky as the Mopar stuff. Not the cheapest or easiest route, but could help retain the "classic" look, keep a mostly familiar platform, and utilize the majority of the parts you have. Again, however, I would start to worry about the T177 with the stroker power potential.

What about a 4.3 V6 with a reflash on the Howell? Gain a little bit of displacement and HP from the V platform, but still a small package that is easy to work on and has a lot of common SBC parts.
 
93_Fummins said:
What about a 4.3 V6 with a reflash on the Howell? Gain a little bit of displacement and HP from the V platform, but still a small package that is easy to work on and has a lot of common SBC parts.
Click to expand...

Interesting. How easy to mate with the drive train? +/- the 2.4 bell housing?
 
Thanks Kane, I have a feeling from reading several of your past posts we're following a similar trajectory, so I value your input.

My one concern is that the Howell is a little questionable - I purchased and installed, but it took a "mod" to get it working correctly which Howell refused to acknowledge. I had to plug one of the manifold ports because it was venting improperly. An inspector suggested it might be an atypical throttle body that Howell overlooked :shrug:

Anyway, I'm not entirely opposed to shaking up the rest of the drive train. I know my restorer would take a fair trade t177 with less than 3000 miles on it. I just have some feelings for it after what it took to rebuild and install. Mostly bitter ones.
 
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walkerhoundvm said:
Interesting. How easy to mate with the drive train? +/- the 2.4 bell housing?
Click to expand...

It looks to be relatively straightforward. I was settled on putting a 4.3 in my CJ8 in place of the missing Duke, but dragged my feet long enough to talk myself into an LS swap instead. According to my reading a while back, with the Duke bellhousing, the only other catch was using the "small" flywheel and a careful selection for pilot bearing. Unfortunately I don't have any of the info bookmarked anymore...

Howell is usually pretty helpful with supporting their product, so it's surprising to hear they refused to acknowledge something. Just suggested reusing what you have for simplicity.
 
I think a TBI 350 most closely meets your requirements.

You mentioned you'd like to tow a pop-up camping trailer, and unless you're always towing on flat ground, the 258 is never going to live up to your expectations (neither would a 4.0).

As far as engine swaps go, the Chevy small block is by far the most common, and has the most aftermarket conversion options to choose from. Because of this, it will be the least time-consuming, and least expensive.

A 5.3 LS swap would be awesome! However, it is also a lot more involved. If you're paying someone to do the work, you'll blow past your stated budget in pretty short order.

I agree with Fummins about the AX-15.

Have fun! :thumbsup:
 
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It would be nice to stick with some of what I have, but I suppose I'd need a new radiator, and would the OEM 6cyl tach work with the V6?
 
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I currently have a Chevy 5.3, ax15, and 3.73 gears on 32 inch tires. I can honestly say the combo is awesome. It is so fun to drive. I used to have a Mopar mpi on my 258 and looking back I really wish I didn't waste my time and money on it. With the 5.3 obviously my power increased but also my fuel economy. The 5.3 doesn't have to work hard in a jeep. If you're going through the effort of swapping in a different motor, I would do something more worth while. Even in little S10s the 4.3 didn't get great gas mileage and in my opinion always felt doggy. They never got better than mid to maybe upper teens for mpgs. I consistently get upper teens in all around driving and I have 300 hp when I want it.
 
Ron84cj said:
I currently have a Chevy 5.3, ax15, and 3.73 gears on 32 inch tires. I can honestly say the combo is awesome.
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I'll take this into consideration as well. Seems like the combos are fairly easy to come by, but I'll have to see what the restorer can come up with and whether it's manageable. I feel like I'd want it rebuilt just so I can start from scratch, and obviously this is all better to do while everything is being worked on.

I've been neglecting the motor for financial reasons - I'm probably right at my max budget without the motor, but given the time frame of this restoration (6mos or so), I could probably save up the funds to replace the motor in that time.
 
walkerhoundvm said:
Thanks Kane, I have a feeling from reading several of your past posts we're following a similar trajectory, so I value your input.

My one concern is that the Howell is a little questionable - I purchased and installed, but it took a "mod" to get it working correctly which Howell refused to acknowledge. I had to plug one of the manifold ports because it was venting improperly. An inspector suggested it might be an atypical throttle body that Howell overlooked :shrug:

Anyway, I'm not entirely opposed to shaking up the rest of the drive train. I know my restorer would take a fair trade t177 with less than 3000 miles on it. I just have some feelings for it after what it took to rebuild and install. Mostly bitter ones.
Click to expand...


Yeah I am not in love with the Howell kit myself. I actually bought a drop out 4.0 motor from a 95 Wrangler with everything to swap into the Scrambler. I am on the fence about rebuilding into a stroker now or just cleaning it up and swapping over. I just started on the wire harness stripping down since that needs to be done either way. I wanted to go LS but I have too much money in the Jeep already need to cut back on spending. Of course a properly built Stroker wouldn't be cheep either. The only real good thing to the Stroker is I already have a freshly built 4.0 head on the 258 and my exhaust is already built to the Cherokee header so that saves me some money. Decisions decisions, they are never easy.
 
Kane said:
Read this article below from the Novak site. These 4.3 V6 motors are a good swap for a relatively lightweight CJ.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/engines/about/chevy/chevy-small-block-v6/
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I'm leaning heavily towards a SBC (V6) I think. I'm reconsidering how much towing I'll be doing. At most it'd be a small trailer.

My current concerns are going too deep into a complete drive train upgrade, where costs start compounding. I'd like to try to keep it simple and retain as much of what I have as I can - transmission, driveshafts, wiring harness, etc. while upgrading performance and reliability.
 
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I don't know if you are wanting a manual. But, I would suggest a 4.3 with the 4l60E. The computer would control both the engine and transmission, plus everything is standard for the vehicle you got it out of. Only thing to note with this is front driveshaft clearance. Several ways around that, engine offset, small diameter driveshaft, or 3" plus lift or np241C (passenger output with slip yoke eliminator).

I have an 89 TBI 4.3/700r4/np241C sitting in my garage for a swap someday (when I can stand to not have my scrambler drive-able). I have a whole spreadsheet of parts needed for the swap. If you want to go this way I would gladly share with you for planning purposes.
 
IMHO, the 4.3 a pretty nice little engine. Good on gas but enough power to get moving when you step on it.. I believe the rear face of the block is the same as a 5.3, so bell housings, etc should be compatible.

To meet your legality stipulation, I'd be sure to choose an engine manufactured in the same year or newer than your Jeep. Also make sure you install all the emission stuff that would have come with the engine from the factory.
 
Just a quick comment on the T-177....It is just as reliable as an AX-15. The T-176/177, AX-15 & NV3550 all have similar input torque ratings. The only real advantage of the AX-15 is the overdrive. That being said, I just swapped out a T-176 for an NV-3550...only for the overdrive. I ran the T-176 behind a nicely built AMC 401 for over 20 years and only had 2 issues both totally driver error: chipped a reverse gear tooth (rocking in deep snow to get unstuck and got a little stupid) and sheared the rear output shaft on the drag strip, (got really stupid and dumped the clutch with way too much RPM...)

Much of my driving for the 1st 10 years was daily...put at least 100,000 on the 401/T-176 combo. Including some wheeling and pulling small trailers (M-416).

regarding motor swap....my vote for all around daily driver if originality is not a concern is a 4.0L (or stroked version) or the LS.
Good Luck!
 
Scott_P said:
regarding motor swap....my vote for all around daily driver if originality is not a concern is a 4.0L (or stroked version) or the LS.
Good Luck!
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Thanks! Novak seems pretty confident about the health of the T177, too. I like it because I rebuilt it and I know I can do it again if I had to. A new power source is in order, I'd just like to minimize the damage to my checkbook!
 
I agree with post #9

I have a sweet mopar MPFI 258 in my Jeep, but doing it over again a 5.3 LS may be the way to go.

My personal thoughts on a V6 is why? Is you are going to go through the trouble to swap the motor, then do it right, with 2 extra cylinders.

YJ-8
 
YJ-8 said:
I agree with post #9

I have a sweet mopar MPFI 258 in my Jeep, but doing it over again a 5.3 LS may be the way to go.

My personal thoughts on a V6 is why? Is you are going to go through the trouble to swap the motor, then do it right, with 2 extra cylinders.

YJ-8
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I'm mainly worried about having to relocate the engine... And the rest of the drive train, leading to tunnel cutting, new drive shafts, fuel lines, etc.

I agree on the V6, it'll be a wash compared to a V8 in that regard.

I'm now leaning towards a 4.0 mpi and an 82+ AMC V8 for simplicity. My only question now is finding them.
 
I have done all these swaps and there is really no reason to do any of the 6cyl or SBC engines unless that is what you “want”. The difference in cost of the LS would be minimal in relation to the cost of a total Jeep build. The LS will make you love driving your scrambler, easy to work on, lots of aftermarket support, great gas mileage, tons of power, etc, etc, etc i could go on and on. It’s really easy to swap a LS. That’s why people put them in everything.
 
I'm mainly worried about having to relocate the engine... And the rest of the drive train, leading to tunnel cutting, new drive shafts, fuel lines, etc.

I agree on the V6, it'll be a wash compared to a V8 in that regard.

I'm now leaning towards a 4.0 mpi and an 82+ AMC V8 for simplicity. My only question now is finding them.
Click to expand...

I have not measured but I would guess the LS is shorter than the I6 so you would gain room (length). I would also guess that there would be no tunnel cutting unless you are swapping the trans.

If it was a year later then I would consider selling you my 258 and then I would go LS.

That said a built 258/4.0 is a great motor so you will be happy either way, but... its no LS :)

Yj-8
 
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