New Diesel Tread

[Bollocky]

Does any one here run a Mercedes Benz 617? Or know of a brothers friends uncle or something Time is ticking down to that point that I can actually redo the scrambler and I'm looking at burning oil. Well, shoot! now that I put it that way, I'm already there! I mean I want to use veggie oil as fuel. So. Those of you that have a diesel rig, please tell me about it and what mods you had to make to fit it all in. Thanks!

 

[mulescj8]

I'm not running it but have given it a lot of thought.........there are some great links and info on this site: http://www.thedieselstop.com/

 

[wdglide]

Biodiesel - I've been giving it thought myself.

 

[Root Moose]

4bt?

Wouldn't a Cummins 4BT be more practical? They can be easily adapted to "normal" GM trannies, IIRC. Then it's easier to run your t-case.

Just a random thought.

 

[jpdeuce]

I've heard of that before too Root. I've heard old Lays trucks and Fedex trucks had em in them. But I also thought I heard some issues about the fit. Don't know any specifics though.

 

[Root Moose]

I've heard of that before too Root. I've heard old Lays trucks and Fedex trucks had em in them. But I also thought I heard some issues about the fit. Don't know any specifics though.

There's one (or more) pages on the web with images of the 4BT installed in a CJ7 or YJ. Looked pretty good from what I remember. Google should reveal all.

 

[Bollocky]

From what I recall, I don't have my notes with me, the cummins is several hundred pounds heavier thar the Benz engine. Though, I havn't found a gross weight on a 4 or 6cyl. jeep. to compare to.

 

[Fudd]

Cummins 4bt's weigh about 750lbs (according to 'net hearsay). Is it just me or what's so wrong w/ the GM diesels? Simple bolt in w/ a SBC kit and they bolt up to any SBC tranny, run forever, plenty of parts, plenty of torque and are lighter than the Cummins. The only issues I've heard of is that w/ some installs the 6.2's manifolds don't clear a Narrow track frame. I've almost got all my parts together to start on my swap.

 

[Super 8]

I have helped swap in about a dozen 4BT in the last year. The best source is Frito Lays. You can pick up the whole truck for around $1000, scap out the truck body and make most of your money back. They are a great motor. Stupid simple! I have one going into a Early Bronco and a CJ8 right now. I have swapped the 4BT in place of a number of GM diesel. The 6.2/6.5 seem for the most part to be troubled motors. Some people have great luck with them, though. The Duramax is a different story. Great engine. The 4BT's weigh in between 700-750#. About the same as a big block.

 

[Bollocky]

Any one know the weight of jeep engines? I'm just wondering what to compare to. The Om617 Weighs 550-570 fully loaded. I've been looking at that one because it's cheap for me (there's 8-9 in the junk yard closest to my house) and it seems like it would be the lighter of the choices. That and I've heard alot of nay-say about some of the others mentioned like the exhaust clearance, or the all around quality with the 6.*'s

 

[bdbemm]

I have spent a great deal of time looking at om 617. they run just fine on a 80% WVO (waste veggie oil) and 20% RUG (regular unleaded gas). the page dieselgiant.com has some really good do it yourself info on how to tune the 617 and take care of it. The main issue is the trany. 4x4labs.com says they are going to make an adapter for GM tranys for this engine. The people on the mercedes pages say 4x4labs have been saying that for a couple of years now. I am talking to a machine shop here in Denver about making an adapter for the 617. They are supposed to get back to me next week about it.

The 4bt is a very heavy engine. It is also very loud. I talked to someone that put one in a CJ5 and he said it was just to loud and he planned on pulling it. A little upsetting after all the work he put in it.

the VW 1.9 is a maybe. Acme adapters makes a kit to put the VW into a Zuki or a toyota. You can turn the engine and use a toyota trans and T-case. A CJ-8 is about a thousand pounds more than a jetta and you will have to watch your EGTs.

A 6.2 GM is also a maybe. You can add an after market turbo. I liked my 6.5 TD truck. There is a 6.5 td CJ on the dieselpage. The issue with the 6.5 is you will need to make sure you get one with a mechanical injector pump. The electronic ones had issues that are fixable but you will need a new gas pedal since the 6.5 uses a position sensor into run the pump.

There is the Olds 5.7 diesel. This is the same size as the SBC and does away with trany issues. They also had issues but you can get on the web page and learn some fixes for it. They did not have enough head bolts and did not come with a water seperator which lead to timing issues and blown head gaskets. Olds also made a 4.3 diesel but they are real hard to find. I saw one that had a turbo on the olds diesel page. Looked interesting.

I myself am still trying to figure out the 617 issue.

If you come up with anything else please post it.

 

[bdbemm]

Just looked on ebay and there is an olds diesel for sell with a 100.00 high bid for the entire car. There is an xj here in denver with this engine. I was going to track the guy down and see how he liked it.

 

[Root Moose]

Interesting point about the 4BT being very noisy... as if diesels didn't make enough of a racket already.

FWIW, I don't think the VW TD is enough engine for a Scrambler/Jeep scale machine. That said, CJ5s in South Africa did get the VW TD (It's in the Brooklands Jeep CJ5 book, maybe it was a Perkins on second thought).

There is a guy on the Comanche CLub yahoo group and web site that installed a Mercedes into his MJ. He said he liked the engine, but I don't recall much more about it. It was a write off in Katrina.

If you could easily adapt a Jeep style (GM, Ford, NV, BW, whatever) transmission to the OM617 that would be worth pursuing.

I wouldn't waste time on the old tech like the Olds stuff personally. These old converted gas engines always sucked.

If you want it "now", GM 6.2/5 looks to be the way given what has been posted above. FWIW, there's lots of these engines running with high miles on them and parts are cheap. Also, getting more performance out of them is easy enough and relatively cheap. There seems to be an old Banks turbo kit in the local for sale ads around here occasionally. Intercoolers are easy enough to retrofit if you know what you are doing.

As for weight, you're building a Scrambler, not a Samurai. Does a couple hundred pounds really matter? Besides, AMC V-8s were never known for their light weight. They were a one size fits all block (none of this small block, big block foolishness )

FWIW, once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away and in a different life cycle I was going to put a VW TD into a LWB SJ-413 (think mini-Scrambler). Got as far as getting the engine and pulling the 1.3 gas engine out of the frame it was going into. Then I happened upon a fellow with a diesel Samurai and we got to checking out his machine and "bench racing". You know what? The stink of a diesel in a open air machine like a Samurai/Jeep generally sucks. I don't know what it is about diesel exhaust, but it seems to hang around a lot more and is really noticeable. For this reason I sold the TD and stuck with gas. That may or may not matter to you but it does to me. It is probably worth mentioning at least.

 

[Bollocky]

I have to agree about the smell of a diesel exhaust. I once worked in a commercial laundry and when the trucks would back into the door and start filling up the building with the exhaust it would sometimes make me nausious :U . However, I've been doing a lot of reading about veg. oil and it has been mentioned in more than one text that the smell of veggie gas is not as bad. It's still not good, but if some one is really concerned about the smell they could pour a dram or two of an aromatic oil in the tank.

4x4Labs web site lists a package to join the 617 to chevy SM420, SM465, NV4500 trannys.

 

[Bollocky]

Let me know what your local shop has to say, too.

 

[bdbemm]

I called 4x4labs a while back and they said they were working on a 700r4 kit. veggie oil is not bad smelling at all. part of the issue with the diesel smell is the sulfer and this is not a problem with when running straight WVO.

the olds 5.7 is not just a "converted" gasser. It is the same block with a completely different metal and head. The reason the drag racers like them so much is because of the different metal, you can push them really hard as a gas engine. They are sought after to do a conversion to gas for the race world. With better fuels, a water seperator and copper or steel head gaskets, they are supposed to be not bad. Just get a DX block to work with.

The 4bt is an industrial engine. noise was not an issue. You can turn up the IP on it to increase HP but as you do it will rattel a jeep apart. Don't know about yours but there is not much in the way of sound insulation under the hood of mine.

 

[scr83jp]

I have a friend with an XJ who has been toying with the idea to transplant a Cummins 4BT into his ride,several are listed on line,saw a Cummins Turbo 4 sale with about 100K+ miles on it and new crate motors in Canada.

 

[scr83jp]

I have a friend with an XJ who has been toying with the idea to transplant a Cummins 4BT into his ride,several are listed on line,saw a Cummins Turbo 4 sale with about 100K+ miles on it and new crate motors in Canada.Bio doesn't last as long and if you get used you'll smell fish,taters,etc.

 

[Root Moose]

I have a friend with an XJ who has been toying with the idea to transplant a Cummins 4BT into his ride,several are listed on line,saw a Cummins Turbo 4 sale with about 100K+ miles on it and new crate motors in Canada.Bio doesn't last as long and if you get used you'll smell fish,taters,etc.

Scuttlebutt at NAXJA says it won't fit in an XJ. It is too tall.

 

[n9viw]

Bio doesn't last as long and if you get used you'll smell fish,taters,etc.

Not true! Having helped process WVO from picking it up to pumping it out, I can tell you the only time it smells like anything is if it's burned or old. Filtered WVO of any quality has a very faint scent of grain, and almost none of what it was used to fry. Ditto for the tailpipe- I knelt right behind an idling '85 Mercedes 300D, and took a deep breath- no "hey, it smells like french fries/hash browns/fish patties!" or anything- it almost smelled like nothing. What it smelled most like, was the WVO- that same faint oily grain smell.
Also, biodiesel will last as long as WVO, if kept in the same conditions- a FULL, closed container. Provided there's no bacteria intrusion in the WVO, it will keep almost indefinitely. After the inclusion of lye and other chemicals to turn the WVO into bio, nothing could survive to make it putrefy or 'lose efficacy'.
My biggest concern about the 4BT is its weight- that 750# rating is DRY- forgetting the fact that it holds almost THREE GALLONS of oil, plus another three of coolant!- you're pushing close to 900# with fluids, accessories, etc. The frame of a Jeep DEFINITELY needs to be reinforced, and the front springs will need AALs or some other method of boosting to keep you from nosediving into the turf. A Dana 30 is another thing to chuck out- even if it doesn't bend under the weight of the engine, it will definitely grenade when exposed to the full brunt of the torque. I'd go with a MIN of a D44, a D60 would probably be better.