What if the goverment had bailed out AMC

[Dave K.]

All I can say is that it will be a cold day in Hades before I buy another Big 3 product off of the lot. With the expense to repair and the BS with the "service advisors" (who rarely know sheet to begin with about cars) I can't justify throwing money at these twits nor the Big 3 who seem to not be able to design a decent anything really.

I remember when I bought my ZR2 and soon after learned the rear brakes needed work at 35,000 miles (discs)--later they told me the fronts as well. Went in and had a quote--$1200 for the whole brake job and I asked what it needed--oh, calipers, rotors, pads, purge and also the handbrake shoes. Ummmm, what's wrong with the calipers? Frozen up. All of them? Yep. Hmmmm, what about the e-brake shoes because I rarely use it? This is SOP. Sooooo, I told them thanks but no thanks and went to CarQuest, bought some organic pads and medium grade rotors as well as some brake lube and did it myself. The calipers were simply needing a disassy, lube and reassy--they were not leaking. The rotors were cheap and the organic pads are a lot nicer to the rotors and cheaper.

Anyway, total cost per axle was around $140 the first time and having never done discs I found it simple. Ok, so the rears squeak sometimes but I'm never embarrassed--at least not as embarrassed as the others SHOULD BE who willingly bend over for this scam! All you need is the part, simple tools, a couple of cold ones and 2 or 3 hours to complete

Sooooo, I'm selling my ZR2 because it's a POS Big 3 cash and gas sucking pig and buying a really minty and original 1970 F100 short bed pickup for hauling junk around for a whopping $2000 and will never return to a dealership again . . . . my girlfriend's car is another story and I know we need her car to be newer and 100% reliable with all of the protective dealys to fend off drunk yups in their oversize SUVs but I'm fine keeping the old beasts going.

Adios Big Three--I shant miss you if you ultimately go under--you, the management and the corrupt, blood-sucking, entitlement minded UAW have screwed us for too long . . . .

Bitter but Free in Milwaukee . . . . .

 

[groundworks3]

I agree, with the quality of what you get for the $$ on all these new vehicles are more headaches & problems for WAY more $$ lately, I have held off buying a newer truck due to the fact, for what I use ir for my options are a diesel or an underpowered gas, I don't want diesel for the fuel prices, and upkeep, (I am aware a diesel is supposed to get more mileage before going bad, but when it does there is ALOT more to replace @ higher costs than gas), so really there hasn't been any options lately for me, plus they are built so much cheaper, I will probably get another 1998 dually and just fix whatever is wrong with it, it'll still last longer than this new stuff. As far as Adios to the big 3, I wish it was that easy for a small business owner (like me)that actually needs atruck that can pull at least 10,000# on a routine basis, I don't have the option of walking away from them totally, because the Tundra, (although an excellent heavy 1/2 ton) still isn't rated for what I pull!!

But as far as the wife and dependable family driver for out of town and such thats easy, there is a honda or toyota in the near future for us

 

[Dave K.]

I'm buying a newer 2005 or 6 CRV for my girlfriend to replace her aging 2000 model--I highly recommend these if the opportunity arises. Buying used we'll likely save $10K or so depending on year, mileage and options based on the ones I've looked at. Nice cars . . . . and reliable.

 

[*JOKER*]

If the government bailed out AMC, they just would've gone bankrupt a several years later.

This entire situation is the result of greed across the board...from the banks to the consumers to the labor force to the CEOs. We started this time bomb a few decades ago when when our country started utilizing CC to live beyond our means.

Nowhere else in the world, are people enabled to buy the amount of house & auto without means to afford it and no consequences for failing on their contract.

Sorry, but we had this coming. No band-aid will fix the root of the issue. We actually NEED a depression.

Now, you'll have to excuse me. I have a fridge full of food, but I'm so lazy that instead of making anything, I'm going to buy some sushi with my credit card.

 

[groundworks3]

Amen joker,
thats what I'm talking about owning our debt & that it will be a HUGE mistake it the long run to give out more "free" $$, cause no lessons will be taught, or learned, & if anyone would stop to think there is never such a thing as "free" anyway it will bite you later.

 

[Dave K.]

Good summary Joker.

Alas it appears the late 30's are once again upon us based on the news that the WPA will be reborn under the new admin. Think this bailout of everything is going to end at 750 billion? Not by a longshot . . . we'll be paying for all of the slackers and morons with no business or fiscal responsibility for years to come. Everyone without a conscience is going to have their hands out not understanding that for every dollar they mooch they will be paying for with their taxes--if they even pay them . . .

Sadly there are no consequences for poor judgment--just golden parachutes. We all fall on hard times at some point but those are the times that define the man . . . . or at least used to. Now there is no shame in taking handouts . . . . or filing for bankruptcy--that's what really killed us.

 

[*JOKER*]

Now there is no shame in taking handouts . . . . or filing for bankruptcy...

...or being on reality TV!


When you see a multitude of gas-guzzling SUVs with 22" dubs and $3000 stereo systems for sale, that will be a sign that we're beginning to fix the core problem.

 

[twmattox]

I can understand the entire living beyond your means. However, look at what the "standard" of living has become. My fathers house was built in 1969 for $17,000. It appraised (last time he had it done) in 1992 for $97,000. That is a 570% increase in 23 years...

Standard cost of an automobile has increased significantly as well...who would have ever thought an entry level automobile would exceed $10,000.

What about the cost of a college education. College debt is astounding today, but it is considered a necessity for most jobs (notice I said most many can make a decent living without college).

All of these costs have outpaced our increase in wages. Honestly, they our out of most of our control. We have to have a place to live, need transportation to get to work, and need an education to get work. I started off my "adult" life well in the hole financially and have been digging my way out ever since. I don't think that I have lived extravagently or splurged on many things (to me splurging is the occasional $5 DVD from Wal-Mart). I know there are some mistakes I have made...but not many and not enough to feel "guilty" about.

 

[canzo]

You hit the nail on the head. WHY did prices go up so much?

Answer: There has been TOO much easy credit for TOO many people for the past several decades.

When there is easy access to credit, people USE it and buy more products - stuff they want, not need (like iPods and iPhones). The more they buy, the more the prices increase (laws of supply and demand!). The more the prices increase, the more you NEED credit to buy the products. The more we NEED the credit, the more access credit agencies give us to higher amounts of credit.

And it isn't just us little people. Major Corporations, Finance Companies, and Wall Street ALL DID THE SAME THING!!!

Now, there's no more income and everyone is defaulting on the credit that they couldn't afford in the first place!

 

[scott anderson]

All I can say is that it will be a cold day in Hades before I buy another Big 3 product off of the lot. With the expense to repair and the BS with the "service advisors" (who rarely know sheet to begin with about cars) I can't justify throwing money at these twits nor the Big 3 who seem to not be able to design a decent anything really.

I remember when I bought my ZR2 and soon after learned the rear brakes needed work at 35,000 miles (discs)--later they told me the fronts as well. Went in and had a quote--$1200 for the whole brake job and I asked what it needed--oh, calipers, rotors, pads, purge and also the handbrake shoes. Ummmm, what's wrong with the calipers? Frozen up. All of them? Yep. Hmmmm, what about the e-brake shoes because I rarely use it? This is SOP. Sooooo, I told them thanks but no thanks and went to CarQuest, bought some organic pads and medium grade rotors as well as some brake lube and did it myself. The calipers were simply needing a disassy, lube and reassy--they were not leaking. The rotors were cheap and the organic pads are a lot nicer to the rotors and cheaper.

Anyway, total cost per axle was around $140 the first time and having never done discs I found it simple. Ok, so the rears squeak sometimes but I'm never embarrassed--at least not as embarrassed as the others SHOULD BE who willingly bend over for this scam! All you need is the part, simple tools, a couple of cold ones and 2 or 3 hours to complete

Sooooo, I'm selling my ZR2 because it's a POS Big 3 cash and gas sucking pig and buying a really minty and original 1970 F100 short bed pickup for hauling junk around for a whopping $2000 and will never return to a dealership again . . . . my girlfriend's car is another story and I know we need her car to be newer and 100% reliable with all of the protective dealys to fend off drunk yups in their oversize SUVs but I'm fine keeping the old beasts going.

Adios Big Three--I shant miss you if you ultimately go under--you, the management and the corrupt, blood-sucking, entitlement minded UAW have screwed us for too long . . . .

Bitter but Free in Milwaukee . . . . .

Come on Dave...tell us how u really feel!!!..lol

 

[twmattox]

There has been TOO much easy credit for TOO many people for the past several decades.

I am not certain I agree with this cause and effect. To a large degree, there had to be easier credit, because the items costs were outpacing the public ability to purchase things. I can recall my grandfather talking about waiting to buy a house until he could pay cash for it. My house today is of similar size/style, located in a similar small town. I would have to save for 30+ years to pay cash for it. Therefore, I need the credit/loan! I think the need arose first... In order for the house to sell, someone has to lend money for someone else to buy it. Banks realize this and are in the business to make a profit off of the transaction.

Part of the problem is in real-estate in general. Every time a home is sold it incurs a 6-7% fee for the realtors. This artificially inflates the value of the home by 6-7% every transaction. The average family moves every 5-7 years...so, you get an additional 6-7% bump in home costs every 5-7 years (on average). If people lived their entire lives in their home (like they used to) this would be 6-7% every 50+years (much more manageable).

I am not 100% certain exactly what has led us to this point, but I am not comfortable with where things sit (like anyone is). I absolutely hate having to borrow money. I hate not knowing who I am borrowing it from (most of the financial institutions are not the bank in my hometown). Most of all, I hate feeling like I have no ability to affect the situation. We are helpless in all of this...

 

[canzo]

The 'law' of supply and demand says that:

If more people can afford to buy an item or there is a small supply of a wanted item, then the price will go up because of high demand.

If less people can afford to buy the item, the price will go down until enough people can afford to buy it or the producer will make less of the product in order to keep the price higher.

Easy credit interferes with this process by allowing people who could not afford expensive items, like luxury cars, to buy them using credit.

Normal credit allows people to make purchases they can afford. In other words, if you could set aside $400 a month and save that money over three years to buy a car, then you can afford to buy it now on credit and make a $400 payment for four years (interest makes it cost more).

Easy credit is credit that allows you to buy stuff you really can't afford to buy. Sub-prime loans on houses were made to people who really couldn't afford those homes. Credit cards allow people to run up a lot of debt, as long as they make that monthly payment. If you make the minimum payment on a credit card - as a lot of people have done - you will NEVER pay off your credit card balance. You will always have a balance and therefore the company will continue to make money off of you. That's why they let you have more credit than you can really afford to have.

 

[Jeepskate]

This is another one of those multiple reasons, chicken or the egg things that I don't think we'll ever really know the reasons for. I think, within 'our' control, it started with the increase in dual-income families after WW II and probably moreso in the 60's & 70's. With two incomes, there was more disposable income, but there was still a strong values system in that generation of children of the depression that kept things in check to some extent. As the flower children grew up and assumed the mantle, more self-indulgence became the norm. People were willing to pay large sums of money to live in the trendy nieghborhood even though there was really nothing more going for house A in that area than the identical house B two towns over. Where the lending institutions came in is that they allowed for these inflated values and underwrote loans for them and that has just continued on to where we are now. If the lenders simply said, heck no, that house isn't worth that and didn't grant the loans, the prices would've normalized. Same for all of the other stuff that people are buying. If people can't afford to save for it and can't get credit for it, it won't sell and the price will drop until there's a decent sized market for it. It could be argued that on the flip side, this rampant 'consumerism' has helped to drive innovation of newer, cheaper technology since the developers/producers were flush with cash for R&D as a result of their profits. I dunno...maybe I'm full of crap, I'm no economist I know my parents' house was about $48k when they bought it in a good neighborhood in the late 60's and when the market was still decent (not crazy high) it was worth something in the low $400k range...needless to say I'm never moving back there

 

[Jeepskate]

The credit card companies should be ashamed of themselves and are a *huge* part of the problem. When my wife was in college, she had 4 or 5 credit cards and *NO* job!!! Guess who had a job but could barely get credit and made her monthly payments for her? Guess who paid them all off finally (and paid off her student loans)? To this day, she has a card with a $15k limit (care to guess how much she makes a year?). I have a card with a $5k limit.

 

[mtruckstuff]

Hi Guys, Paul's back form the dead. I still have my '81, but haven't done much with it lately. Anyhow, I dropped in on this thread looking for Dave and found the whole rant about the Big 3 and more importantly the problems in America.

Fact is, we all might as well bend over, because we're going to take it one way or the other. The UAW will stand fast and the Libs will support them so they can get the votes. The Big 3 will get their "bailout" and it IS a bailout. Anyone who thinks it is a "loan" has fallen yet again for the liberal media's BS. Our kids (Sorry kids! ) will pay for our stupidity in spades, but luckily most of us won't be here long enough to suffer much.

What went wrong....

1. Unionization...Socialists from around the world came to America (melting pot, remember?) and organized the "throng" in order to "Share the wealth" and robbed us of our desire to be independent, de-incentivized us and turned the large percentage of the population into lazy mopes who were convinced that they were entitled to prosperity..without any effort. (oh, I forgot, the union bosses got rich, but who cares?)

2. The Greatest Generation. Deserving WWII vets came home to prosperity that was unbounded. Government was relatively conservative and they got rich.... easily. Problem is they also got greedy, felt they actually WERE better than anyone else , including their descendants, and stuck it to the following generations by regulating the system so no one else could share in the prosperity, no matter how motivated they were.

3. My generation, The baby boomers, the hippies, extended the listless, lazy ethic of socialism for about 40 years now, and are willing to lie, cheat and steal for what the still think they're entitled to, but denied them by their fathers. This includes the liberal Marxist ****s that rule in government and industry today and will for the next 30 years or so. Say good bye to prosperity, ingenuity, honesty, and unfortunately any hope for your kids future.

4. The generation yet to come will be so ruthless and greedy that the future of this once wonderful Representative Democracy will slid into the dismal swamp called Communism where no one will be safe to say what I've said or do what they wish without permission. Oh yeah, you'll kiss your toys good bye, for good.

Any out there who voted for 'What's his name" have surely doomed not only themselves, but the rest of us as well with their silly, naive belief that he will DO anything to make their life better. As a matter of fact the one's who think they will sit at his feet and bask in the "glory of his beneficence" are the one's he'll betray first.

On a bright note, we'll all be so pissed about the auto industry in America, that instead of doing anything productive, we'll just go out and buy foreign cars and screw America. Wait..... that already happened, most of you already did that. Hmmm.....I wonder if that could have anything to do with what's happening now???? Naaah, they brought it on themselves....they were the greedy one's.....the automakers and those despicable unions....it's got to be someone else......NOT ME!!! I didn't have a hand in it.

Well, "I" did.

I bought a lot of used VWs for years and maybe one or two new ones along the way, so I'm not innocent, I rationalize by saying that the American vehicles were crap and got lousy mileage (and they were and did in the 70's and 80's), but I'm here to apologize for any money I sent overseas and I'll do my best to never do it again, because every dollar sent out of country will surely accelerate our demise and I refuse to do that to my kids and grandkids.

Do what you will, blame who you might. The only way to change your predicament is to do it at the ballot box. America screwed up by electing this pathologically evil human to manage their future. We'll ALL be sorry sooner than later. I already am. But I'm optimistic that somehow someone will understand and start to take charge of the future while there still is one.


And that's how "I" feel. (flameproof suit deployed)

Paul

Oh yeah, Glad to be back!!!

 

[scott anderson]

Welcome back Paul...!!

I had forgot how much I liked you



Did he say twat?

 

[twmattox]

Interesting view... Let's just agree that we disagree on things...no need for a flame suit. Unfortunately, only time will tell the outcome. This will take years...

 

[scott anderson]

Interesting view... Let's just agree that we disagree on things...no need for a flame suit. Unfortunately, only time will tell the outcome. This will take years...

I hope the pain is minimal...those that are able to keep their jobs will be ok...those that lose them will hurt...I am embarassed that we are putting this debt on future generations

 

[Dave K.]

Welcome back Paul and thanks for your input!

I am personally scared s-less of this new dictator and the mindless Congress that will back him. Expanded goverment, more taxes, and at the end of the day more socialism. How far we have come from the ideals set forth by the founding fathers. Then again those were tough, self reliant individuals back then. They would cringe at what they are going to see in the coming 4 years and the whiney, hands-out people who populate the polling booths these days.

At least Ford has stepped up and said they want no hand outs like the other two mooches which is heartening. I will support Ford and consider a vehicle from them going forward. Buying "foreign" is a gray area these days anyways what with local production for Toyota, Honda, and others right here in the US.

No, I'm not a big lover of unions and I make no bones about it. The initial goals of fair and humane working conditions are long since gone and replaced with a belief in entitlements beyond that of the average American which should fit in well with the new admin. I'm also not a big lover of the high paid management but also consider button pushers making over $75,000 a year pretty ridiculous as well.

We'll see where it goes and we can only hope that it goes well for us.

 

[canzo]

Hey, Paul. It was actually communists who founded many of the largest unions still around today. When found out, they were ousted by the mob, with the blessings of the government. But all those communist ideas stayed and the union bosses did get rich as you said.

Scott. Don't be too embarrassed. It's a 'rich' tradition in the United States to slap a monumental governmental financial burden on our progeny. It started in the 1960's when Congress realized there was a huge cash-money pot called Social Security that they could dip their dirty nasty little fingers into - even though the law said they couldn't, they changed the law so they could. Since then, we've never been without a huge debt carried over to the next generation. Our forebears let them do it. We've let them do it. Our kids will do the same... until ...

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson