Charlie's cummins diesel transplant thread

Hey Guys,

I have begun the diesel transplant in my 84' scrambler. I am not calling it a swap, even though it is, because the phrase "4BT swap" has become one of my pet peeves.

We picked up the truck in Connecticut with my flatbed a month or so ago, brought it home and have removed the motor. Now all I have to do is figure out how to copy and paste pictures of it onto this thread! For now here is the link to the preliminary photos of the project. A few photos are of a YJ with a 4BT cummins that I took at Jeff Daniels Jeeps in Harleyville, Pa. They have a motor mount kit for Jeep/cummins swaps that I bought.

http://picasaweb.google.com/charlievenezia/ScramblerEngineSwap#

Right now the motor is out of the bread truck and is suspended from the engine lift. We have removed the exhaust manifold and turbo to replace the gaskets and give it a thorough "once over" while it is out of the truck. I am headed out to the shop this afternoon to take pictures of our current level of progress. There is much to do in gathering correct parts, checking the rod and main bearings for wear and swapping (there is that word again) the oil pan from a front sump to rear sump.

Nice! Looking forward to following this.

To put pictures in, the trick is to have the URL to the IMAGE, not the page that the image is seen on. What that means is that you should be able to paste the image link in a blank browser window and see nothing but the image.

For me, I right-click on the image and say "copy image location", that gets the right link, then you can click the small mountain/sun icon above the text entry field on a new post and paste the link in, or you can just put around the link in the text of your post.

Here's your first image:



There's a thread with a tutorial here: https://www.cj-8.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6142

Holy Cow, I think I'm getting this stuff down, thanks BW! That how to thread was perfect.When I was reading your directions about the mountain and sun button I was saying to myself "what is he smoking?" Then I realized my error and had to ask myself "from how high was I dropped as a baby?"

Various engine shots and piles of parts. Hopefully I can figure out a way to make the intercooler fit by moving the whole radiator/electric fan setup back a bit. The motor itself is about the same length as my V8, but without the V8 water pump, ect. I should have plenty of room to make things fit. If not, I guess it will come down to shelling out the moola for a custom air to air.


Exhaust manifold removed

Nice

I find it hard to believe that there aren't any other posts here yet after someone finally starts the 4BT build thread that everyone's wanted to see! Must all be lurking and not posting

Keep it up, can't wait to see it come together!

where did you get the truck? and for how much? been thinking about doing this swap into my Jeep as well...

bigwalton said:

Nice

I find it hard to believe that there aren't any other posts here yet after someone finally starts the 4BT build thread that everyone's wanted to see! Must all be lurking and not posting

Keep it up, can't wait to see it come together!

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Thanks! Hopefully more pictures from today's work posted soon.

Bad Karma said:

where did you get the truck? and for how much? been thinking about doing this swap into my Jeep as well...

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I found the truck on craigslist for $2800, it's an oshkosh body that had the 4BTAA from the factory. Actually I found two, the other is in NH. It was a little older and wasn't air-to-air so I went with the newer in CT. The two are the same HP rating (105), but the newer must have been intercooled to meet more updated emissions. The older van (grummen (sp?) body unkown chassis) originally had a chevy 350 in it, then the bakery had cummins northeast (Boston) swap in the 4BTs. I think both trucks came out of the same fleet, Market Basket, just different eras. Now Market Basket uses cabover imports, ala Hino or FG or something with boxes on the chassis. I actually know the mechanic that did a lot of these swaps for MB in the early nineties and hopefully he will come down to my shop and do some consulting/wrenching as we make HP modifications. If you look around you will find these trucks in various states of repair for $1000-$5000. From what Jeff at Jeff Daniels told me $2800 for the whole truck is a pretty decent find as a lot of places want $3k for just the motor.

The gent I bought mine from was going to use it for a mobile fiberglass repair business, then changed careers. It's too bad because he put a bunch of money into the truck, re-cored the radiator, rebuilt the front calipers, etc. all of which I will probably scrap. I hate throwing good parts away so when the project is over I may try and find someone to give the parts a good home. There seem to be plenty of people planning these projects that buy the truck then lose interest or have life's circumstances prohibit such a project so keep your eye out. There is a forum called 4btswaps.com that has a ton of info. It's actually too much info for me to wade through so I have spent minimal time there.

yeah i'm a member on that forum as well... holding off on the swap right now since i just bought a house, building a Scrambler from the frame up... and trying to maintain a CJ-7... the list goes on and on... i'll be following this thread VERY closely!!!

Very cool Charlie!!! I just missed a complete bread truck, that was located in Maine, by about an hour. When I called the guy he said the new owner just left with it...when asked how much did it go for, the guy said $500.00!!! Oh well, we'll keep looking.

Which pump does your motor have, rotary or inline?

I've been in contact with Jeff Daniels about mounts and they seem reasonable.

Best of luck with your "swap", I'll be watching this thread.

Maybe I'll make it down to check it out in person over the Summer.

4BTCJ8 said:

Very cool Charlie!!! I just missed a complete bread truck, that was located in Maine, by about an hour. When I called the guy he said the new owner just left with it...when asked how much did it go for, the guy said $500.00!!! Oh well, we'll keep looking.

Which pump does your motor have, rotary or inline?

I've been in contact with Jeff Daniels about mounts and they seem reasonable.

Best of luck with your "swap", I'll be watching this thread.

Maybe I'll make it down to check it out in person over the Summer.

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Bummer on missing that deal. That's almost too good to be true! I may not end up using my JD motor mount kit so I may be able to sell you mine. That would at least save you freight+.

My motor has the VE pump. It's not the p7100 inline, that much I know for sure. I tried to find a "p" pumped motor but I believe they were only on the 95' and newer motors, same as the Dodge Cummins. Don't shy away from a rotary pump though. The guys at Diesel Power Systems in Bangor, Me. told me the rotary would be fine and we could boost it up aplenty. I only hope for a 150 horse or so. I think the p-pump is key if you want a super high horsepower motor, upwards of 200, which I am not aspiring to achieve. Additionally, if you find a donor truck with a chevy type trans and aren't going that route, those adapters are selling for $750+ on ebay. That will help mitigate the cost of the donor vehicle.

Unfortunately the project is on hold for the next few days. Aside from ordering a parts book and doing some referencing with the Cummins mechanic on a rear sump oil pan setup, no wrenches will be turned. Work is getting scarce so I better make hay while the sun is shining!

Ok Guys, I need some help. Please!

I am diligently working on sourcing parts for this project, but have hit a snag. Below is the problem.


I have a 4BTA currently set up for a ford manual (from an Oshkosh bread truck) that I am trying to mate up to an NV4500 that I already own. The NV4500 has been converted to work with the chevy 350 already in my Jeep (with Advance Adapters bellhousing). I want to set up the NV4500 and 4BTA in a stock Dodge Cummins arrangement like it would have come from doge in say a mid 90's 4X4 manual. Can anyone direct me to a definitive thread that will help me with this or answer my questions here?
I need to figure out exactly what parts I need to source for the Dodge Cummins setup. I know I will need a bellhousing, input shaft, retainer and starter, but what else? There is currently some sort of adapter on the motor that mounts between the block and the bellhousing. Is this a universal adapter or specific for the Ford bellhousing. I imagine I need to get a different one to work with the Dodge Cummins NV4500 bellhousing, but don't know a part number, etc.


To be candid, this is the exact same post I put up on the 4Bt swaps forum. What I need to figure out is if a mid 90's Cummins powered Dodge pickup has a 2"ish aluminum adapter bolted between the engine block and bellhousing. I imagine it does, but I can't seem to figure out a part #. Does anyone own a mid 90's Dodge Cummins pickup with a manual transmission? If so, could anyone give me some feedback and maybe a part # or PM me a VIN to call a Dodge dealership with? My uncle had a 96', but totalled it when someone crossed the median and hit him head on in a snow storm. I am thinking a Dodge Cummins pickup will have the adapter, maybe considered a flywheel housing, but it may be different from what came with my 4BT/Ford T19 trans setup.

I would be very greatful if someone could help me out. Any leads would be really appreciated.
Thanks!-Charlie

charliev said:

Holy Cow, I think I'm getting this stuff down, thanks BW! That how to thread was perfect.When I was reading your directions about the mountain and sun button I was saying to myself "what is he smoking?"

Click to expand...

Yeah, we wonder the same thing about BW!

Great thresd and pictures, too. Looking forward to following your "transplant".

Grantshire said:

Yeah, we wonder the same thing about BW!

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Hey now, I resemble that remark!

More photos. Much progress made yesterday and today.

The shirts says it all around this outfit....


Before removal of the fuel pump we needed to lock the motor to preserve timing with the pump. By removing the valve cover gasket from the number one cylinder we could get the cam gear close to where we needed to be to drop in the locking dowl on the accessory gear drive.
Remvoving a badly rusted crank pulley to allow the removal of the front cover on the accessory gear drive. I am hoping to replace the pulley with a harmonic balancer to reduce the vibration Cummins are known for.

Cover removed allowing access to the fuel pump gear and for general inspection of gear drive prior to instalation.

Fuel pump draining prior to being shipped to the diesel shop for a freshen up/turn up. The injectors were also removed allowing the shop to give those a once over and to mate to the turned up pump. We may end up swapping the stock injectors for larger ones. The pump is going to produce 30-40% more power than at its current setting. A pyrometer and boost gauge will be added at the end of the transplant and to further tune everything.


I hope this isn't too boring. I have been sourcing parts the past two days and hope to have everything (flywheel, bellhousing, clutch, etc.) by the end of next week. Once I have all the parts, the jeep will start to be torn down and the trans will go to the transmission guru to have the input shaft swapped and a general once over.

Have a great Fourth of July weekend!

charliev said:

More photos. Much progress made yesterday and today.

The shirts says it all around this outfit....

Before removal of the fuel pump we needed to lock the motor to preserve timing with the pump. By removing the valve cover gasket from the number one cylinder we could get the cam gear close to where we needed to be to drop in the locking dowl on the accessory gear drive.

Remvoving a badly rusted crank pulley to allow the removal of the front cover on the accessory gear drive. I am hoping to replace the pulley with a harmonic balancer to reduce the vibration Cummins are known for.

Cover removed allowing access to the fuel pump gear and for general inspection of gear drive prior to instalation.

Fuel pump draining prior to being shipped to the diesel shop for a freshen up/turn up. The injectors were also removed allowing the shop to give those a once over and to mate to the turned up pump. We may end up swapping the stock injectors for larger ones. The pump is going to produce 30-40% more power than at its current setting. A pyrometer and boost gauge will be added at the end of the transplant and to further tune everything.

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Looks good Charlie, what balancer will you be using?

BTW...a few of those pics are just red Xs.

I actually don't know what balancer to use. I need to research that aswell. Thoughts?

I am not sure about the X's. They all come up in my post and your quote post. I am not the most tech savvy of individuals! It could be that you responded while I was still editing the post and some weren't correctly cut and pasted. Either way, thanks for looking!

charliev said:

I actually don't know what balancer to use. I need to research that aswell. Thoughts?

I am not sure about the X's. They all come up in my post and your quote post. I am not the most tech savvy of individuals! It could be that you responded while I was still editing the post and some weren't correctly cut and pasted. Either way, thanks for looking!

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It's funny...last night there were 3 red Xs, today there are 4.

Better?

Much...thanks Charlie

Go,go,go!!!

Hey Charlie I'm cheering you on so you can get ahead of me and my 4BT project.
(Not too hard..I've hit a money dip in the road)

I just read your post for the first time today. I hear you on trying to find answers on the 4btswaps site.

Did I miss it or did you not post a pic of the engine mounts you bought? If you have a moment to post 'em I'd like to see them.

What is your intended purpose for the Scrambler? Rocks,trail,hunting,DD? Curious what axle gears your gonna run. I'm mostly going for mileage but, I still want it to be capable off-road.

FNG w/81 CJ8 said:

Hey Charlie I'm cheering you on so you can get ahead of me and my 4BT project.
(Not too hard..I've hit a money dip in the road)

I just read your post for the first time today. I hear you on trying to find answers on the 4btswaps site.

Did I miss it or did you not post a pic of the engine mounts you bought? If you have a moment to post 'em I'd like to see them.

What is your intended purpose for the Scrambler? Rocks,trail,hunting,DD? Curious what axle gears your gonna run. I'm mostly going for mileage but, I still want it to be capable off-road.

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FNG,

The reason I am going through the hassle is manyfold. I want a reliable expedition capable platform that also had a lot of character (in other words I couldn't afford a diesel LR Defender and didn't know that a HZJ 75 L Cruiser existed). The scrambler has a lot of character, but I don't think a gas engine is best for long trips or trips to remote areas.

I started a thread asking if there was any interest in a diesel swap thread that would answer your questions more completely. I definitely want a capable off road vehicle that I can drive to the trailhead, regardless of distance and get 20+MPG while I'm at it. I'll post pictures of the motor mounts soon. I won't be back to work on the project until next week.