AMC 360 Build

[wjtstudios]

I'm considering going down the rabbit hole of swapping a 360 in to my 8 from a wagoneer. I have a line on a good engine from a friend that was going to put it in his 7 but decided to keep his 304. As I get into this I need to know what to plan for. I have a guy lined up that will rebuild the engine and he is asking me as we are getting into this what is the best cam and value set up to run for that engine. The scrambler is going to be 90% on road 10% off road and turning 33s. So I am looking for some input there on what you guys are running.

Looking into other details with the swap:

Fuel line 3/8" correct?

Motor mounts, M.O.R.E.

Advance adapters or novac to mount up the T5 and Dana 300

Radiator? Will the existing radiator work or is there a different radiator that I need to go with

What is the engine paint color code for the blue.

Exhaust, I plan on keeping the existing exhaust manifold. Dual exhausts seem to be the right direction beyond that. Is there a manufacture that you would recommend.

What other large items am I missing?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[barrys]

A transmission that will live behind a 360 if its not stock and driven spiritedly.

 

[mwqpd11]

T5 will bolt up with no adapter. Trans will not last behind that power. 3 row radiator with shroud. Edelbrock performer cam and intake is perfect with matching 600 cam carb

 

[wjtstudios]

A transmission that will live behind a 360 if its not stock and driven spiritedly.

T5 will bolt up with no adapter. Trans will not last behind that power. 3 row radiator with shroud. Edelbrock performer cam and intake is perfect with matching 600 cam carb

Thank you. What trans do you guys recommend?

 

[AK-RWC]

Some of this will be echos from above, but here goes:
1. If you can find them, OEM 304 motor mounts from a 5/7 will work to bolt the block in. Otherwise, any of the aftermarket are also good choices.
2. The Gen III V8s are the same bolt pattern as the 258, so no adapter needed for the transmission. You'll need the proper pilot bushing though, depending on your transmission selection.
3. AMC V8s are externally balanced, so you'll need a flywheel specifically for a 360. I believe you can still order them aftermarket, so sourcing one shouldn't be a problem. You can also have a "wrong" flywheel re-balanced by a competent machine shop.
4. The T-5 will die quickly behind a 360. For a bolt-in, look for a T-176 at a minimum. If you're willing to deal with an adapter, consider a T-18 (or consider running a Dana 20). If you want to keep a five-speed, open your wallet and get an NV4500.
5. In my experience, the Edelbrock Performer Package (specifically, the cam) is better suited for the 304. It just doesn't work quite as well on the 360, but I saw a guy in a 7 running this package with a 304 who could pop a front tire off the ground. Still use the Performer Intake and the Edelbrock carb, but I'd jump to a different cam. Summit p/n SUM-8600 and SUM-8601 are well respected by the FSJ guys for use in the 360. I ran the 8601 for a while in my 401 and was pleased (until I lost a distributor drive gear, but that's another story).
6. You'll want at least the 3-core radiator that was stock for the 304. I ran that with my 360 and didn't have any issues. (For the 401 I jumped to a 4-core.) I recommend getting the fan shroud for a 304, also available in the aftermarket from Omix-Ada.
7. I don't know the OEM paint code, but Eastwood sells "AMC Blue" that is the correct color, p/n 51615ZP, as does Seymour in their "Hi-Tech" line, p/n EN-66. My 401 is painted with the Seymour paint and it came out looking great.
8. As for manifolds, there are a couple of different styles. Try to avoid the "log" style, and run the "freeflow" style. Log style was used on certain packages when there were clearance issues; I can't tell you the specific rhyme, reason, or rule; even '80s FSJs used them on the left side, while I got a 304 that had been dealer-installed into a Scrambler that had a right-side log. Free-flows look like this:

There's not going to be an off-the-shelf exhaust manufacturer for you if you want to go dual. I don't even think there's one for single since the 304 wasn't an option for the CJ-8. You can obviously use the 7's crossover pipe, IF you use the manifolds that a 7 came with (but I don't know if they came with log or freeflow, or a mixture, and/or which side was which). Your best bet will be to simply take it to an exhaust shop to have the rest of the system built by hand.

 

[wjtstudios]

Some of this will be echos from above, but here goes:
1. If you can find them, OEM 304 motor mounts from a 5/7 will work to bolt the block in. Otherwise, any of the aftermarket are also good choices.
2. The Gen III V8s are the same bolt pattern as the 258, so no adapter needed for the transmission. You'll need the proper pilot bushing though, depending on your transmission selection.
3. AMC V8s are externally balanced, so you'll need a flywheel specifically for a 360. I believe you can still order them aftermarket, so sourcing one shouldn't be a problem. You can also have a "wrong" flywheel re-balanced by a competent machine shop.
4. The T-5 will die quickly behind a 360. For a bolt-in, look for a T-176 at a minimum. If you're willing to deal with an adapter, consider a T-18 (or consider running a Dana 20). If you want to keep a five-speed, open your wallet and get an NV4500.
5. In my experience, the Edelbrock Performer Package (specifically, the cam) is better suited for the 304. It just doesn't work quite as well on the 360, but I saw a guy in a 7 running this package with a 304 who could pop a front tire off the ground. Still use the Performer Intake and the Edelbrock carb, but I'd jump to a different cam. Summit p/n SUM-8600 and SUM-8601 are well respected by the FSJ guys for use in the 360. I ran the 8601 for a while in my 401 and was pleased (until I lost a distributor drive gear, but that's another story).
6. You'll want at least the 3-core radiator that was stock for the 304. I ran that with my 360 and didn't have any issues. (For the 401 I jumped to a 4-core.) I recommend getting the fan shroud for a 304, also available in the aftermarket from Omix-Ada.
7. I don't know the OEM paint code, but Eastwood sells "AMC Blue" that is the correct color, p/n 51615ZP, as does Seymour in their "Hi-Tech" line, p/n EN-66. My 401 is painted with the Seymour paint and it came out looking great.
8. As for manifolds, there are a couple of different styles. Try to avoid the "log" style, and run the "freeflow" style. Log style was used on certain packages when there were clearance issues; I can't tell you the specific rhyme, reason, or rule; even '80s FSJs used them on the left side, while I got a 304 that had been dealer-installed into a Scrambler that had a right-side log. Free-flows look like this:

There's not going to be an off-the-shelf exhaust manufacturer for you if you want to go dual. I don't even think there's one for single since the 304 wasn't an option for the CJ-8. You can obviously use the 7's crossover pipe, IF you use the manifolds that a 7 came with (but I don't know if they came with log or freeflow, or a mixture, and/or which side was which). Your best bet will be to simply take it to an exhaust shop to have the rest of the system built by hand.

Thank you. That is a huge help. How is the T-176 when compared to the NV4500. The NV looks a hell of a lot stronger coming out of a 2500-3500. With the T-176 being a 4 speed, is highway driving going to be an issue due to RPMs or is it geared a bit lower? Either will mate up to a Dana 300?

 

[AK-RWC]

The T-176 came factory in CJs with a Dana 300, and I believe it (and the T-18) were the two stick options for FSJs. Per Advanced Adapters, it even came stock in FSJs behind the 360.
http://www.advanceadapters.com/tech-vault/a-tremec-t176/
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/transmissions/manual/t176
It is a good, medium-duty transmission. If you're going with high horsepower, you'll need something else, but from what you've described it's still a reasonably mild build.

The NV4500 is a heavy-duty truck transmission. It is definitely a lot stronger, and comes with overdrive. Nothing about it will bolt-in. It will require adapters on both ends.
http://www.advanceadapters.com/nv4500-transmission.php

4th gear ("drive") is 1:1 regardless of the transmission, so there's no real "difference" from an RPM standpoint on the highway except that the T-176 has no overdrive. With OD, you can arguably go with deeper axle gears since you have something taller on the highway, but since this is mostly a highway vehicle for you anyway, I wouldn't consider trading off deeper differential gears just because you have an OD with the 4500. So the "advantage" of the NV4500 (aside from strength) is simply having an OD for lower highway RPMs and better mileage in 5th gear.

The NV4500 came in several different flavors, including a granny first gear. With a really deep first gear and properly geared axles, you probably won't find yourself using 1st on the street.

The NV4500 is notoriously expensive to stick in a Jeep. But you get a bullet-proof 5-speed, and maybe one with a granny first. The T-176 will bolt-together using factory parts, but won't be as strong (still adequate for your purposes though), won't have OD, and won't have a granny first. The T-176 will be significantly cheaper to source and install.

 

[John N]

My one addition...if you plan to go off-road, don’t use an Edlebrock carb. They just aren’t suited to in my experience. If you can go straight to a TBI, do it and save the pain of dealing with carbs.

 

[wjtstudios]

The T-176 came factory in CJs with a Dana 300, and I believe it (and the T-18) were the two stick options for FSJs. Per Advanced Adapters, it even came stock in FSJs behind the 360.
http://www.advanceadapters.com/tech-vault/a-tremec-t176/
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/transmissions/manual/t176
It is a good, medium-duty transmission. If you're going with high horsepower, you'll need something else, but from what you've described it's still a reasonably mild build.

The NV4500 is a heavy-duty truck transmission. It is definitely a lot stronger, and comes with overdrive. Nothing about it will bolt-in. It will require adapters on both ends.
http://www.advanceadapters.com/nv4500-transmission.php

4th gear ("drive") is 1:1 regardless of the transmission, so there's no real "difference" from an RPM standpoint on the highway except that the T-176 has no overdrive. With OD, you can arguably go with deeper axle gears since you have something taller on the highway, but since this is mostly a highway vehicle for you anyway, I wouldn't consider trading off deeper differential gears just because you have an OD with the 4500. So the "advantage" of the NV4500 (aside from strength) is simply having an OD for lower highway RPMs and better mileage in 5th gear.

The NV4500 came in several different flavors, including a granny first gear. With a really deep first gear and properly geared axles, you probably won't find yourself using 1st on the street.

The NV4500 is notoriously expensive to stick in a Jeep. But you get a bullet-proof 5-speed, and maybe one with a granny first. The T-176 will bolt-together using factory parts, but won't be as strong (still adequate for your purposes though), won't have OD, and won't have a granny first. The T-176 will be significantly cheaper to source and install.

Thank you, it sounds like the T-176 is a better fit for me now. For longer highway runs, I'll end up trailering it anyway.

My one addition...if you plan to go off-road, don’t use an Edlebrock carb. They just aren’t suited to in my experience. If you can go straight to a TBI, do it and save the pain of dealing with carbs.

Thank you. Did you go with the Howel TBI?

 

[John N]

Thank you, it sounds like the T-176 is a better fit for me now. For longer highway runs, I'll end up trailering it anyway.



Thank you. Did you go with the Howel TBI?

I did use the Howell.

 

[surfjeepzx]

Thank you. That is a huge help. How is the T-176 when compared to the NV4500. The NV looks a hell of a lot stronger coming out of a 2500-3500. With the T-176 being a 4 speed, is highway driving going to be an issue due to RPMs or is it geared a bit lower? Either will mate up to a Dana 300?

I have the 360, T-176, Dana 300, 33" and run 4:10's. That gear is too low for the road so go 3:73 on the gears with the 4 speed T-176. If you're going to run a 5 spd the overdrive will allow the 4:10 gears to work but there'll be a lot of shifting. I plan to change my gears out in the fall. Also, I'm running the Edelbrock cam, double roller timing chain and gears, lifters, performer intake and 600 carb. I'd prefer the airgap intake. The performer intake has the exhaust gas recirc path under the carb. I modified that to prevent the heat soak to the carb. The air gap is designed eliminate that .

 

[surfjeepzx]

Also upgrade the ignition system to eliminate the ford box. Use MSD or some other more reliable system with the mopar distributor.

 

[Scott_P]

I pretty much agree with everything stated above (I am running a 401 currently and have run AMC V8's forever) , but here are a few comments anyway:

1. Another transmission option is an NV3550 or AX-15 if you want an overdrive. I just swapped in a NV3550 and have a write up about it in the drivetrain section. With the right donor parts it can be almost a bolt-in other than driveshafts. These transmissions are comparable in strength to the T-176 if not a little stronger. (I took out a T-176)
2. I run a Edelbrock 600 with no issues off-road, but I did put a set of the marine spring-loaded float needles in it.
3. I am currently running the Summit 8600 cam and have also run the edelbrock performer in both 401's and 360's. I think either is a fine choice...the 8600 makes more HP and has good torque. I think the performer might make a tad bit more torque on the low end, but does flatten out quicker on the top end, especially in the 401. It was great in the 360.

***************4.********************AMC V8 OILING******************************
Unless your engine builder knows AMC V8's inside and out, have him, or you should, study up on the oiling system. The biggy is in the part inspection and assembly of the cam, cam gear, fuel pump eccentric, etc. and oil pump. There are oiling holes that lubricate the distributor gear. A lot of guys overlook this and distributor gear/cam gear failure can occur if assembled wrong, or if holes are plugged, dirty, contain casting flash, etc. In addition, the oil pumps on AMC are marginal, but a well assembled in spec pump is just fine. There are lots of write-ups on the amc forum, bulltear, etc. for this area. There are also some mods out there that for street are not really necessary, but you may consider if you like the skinny pedal and high RPM's.

Good luck with your build!

 

[wjtstudios]

I pretty much agree with everything stated above (I am running a 401 currently and have run AMC V8's forever) , but here are a few comments anyway:

1. Another transmission option is an NV3550 or AX-15 if you want an overdrive. I just swapped in a NV3550 and have a write up about it in the drivetrain section. With the right donor parts it can be almost a bolt-in other than driveshafts. These transmissions are comparable in strength to the T-176 if not a little stronger. (I took out a T-176)
2. I run a Edelbrock 600 with no issues off-road, but I did put a set of the marine spring-loaded float needles in it.
3. I am currently running the Summit 8600 cam and have also run the edelbrock performer in both 401's and 360's. I think either is a fine choice...the 8600 makes more HP and has good torque. I think the performer might make a tad bit more torque on the low end, but does flatten out quicker on the top end, especially in the 401. It was great in the 360.

***************4.********************AMC V8 OILING******************************
Unless your engine builder knows AMC V8's inside and out, have him, or you should, study up on the oiling system. The biggy is in the part inspection and assembly of the cam, cam gear, fuel pump eccentric, etc. and oil pump. There are oiling holes that lubricate the distributor gear. A lot of guys overlook this and distributor gear/cam gear failure can occur if assembled wrong, or if holes are plugged, dirty, contain casting flash, etc. In addition, the oil pumps on AMC are marginal, but a well assembled in spec pump is just fine. There are lots of write-ups on the amc forum, bulltear, etc. for this area. There are also some mods out there that for street are not really necessary, but you may consider if you like the skinny pedal and high RPM's.

Good luck with your build!

Thank you very for all that info! I'm getting closer to making this move. As I get closer, I am sure I'll have more questions but that is a huge help.

Thanks again!

 

[wjtstudios]

I have the 360, T-176, Dana 300, 33" and run 4:10's. That gear is too low for the road so go 3:73 on the gears with the 4 speed T-176. If you're going to run a 5 spd the overdrive will allow the 4:10 gears to work but there'll be a lot of shifting. I plan to change my gears out in the fall. Also, I'm running the Edelbrock cam, double roller timing chain and gears, lifters, performer intake and 600 carb. I'd prefer the airgap intake. The performer intake has the exhaust gas recirc path under the carb. I modified that to prevent the heat soak to the carb. The air gap is designed eliminate that .

Awesome, Thank you! I'm thinking that I'm going back in the direction of the AX-15. In the end, having the 5th gear and 4:10s is going to be worth it in the end.

 

[Scott_P]

I agree on the gears....I run 3.73's with a 33" tire. They were good a good compromise on/off-road with the T-176 for my use. Only complaint was on the freeway. I usually stayed on the hwy vs. the freeway and ran 60mph. Now Michigan has increased a lot of hwys here up north to 65mph...so everyone is kickin' chickin' at 70mph across the UP...so I went to the NV3550 for the overdrive. 4.10 would be a nice choice w/OD too.

 

[bigwalton]

Now Michigan has increased a lot of hwys here up north to 65mph...so everyone is kickin' chickin' at 70mph across the UP...so I went to the NV3550 for the overdrive. 4.10 would be a nice choice w/OD too.

65? They're doing 75 now! I love it

 

[wjtstudios]

I agree on the gears....I run 3.73's with a 33" tire. They were good a good compromise on/off-road with the T-176 for my use. Only complaint was on the freeway. I usually stayed on the hwy vs. the freeway and ran 60mph. Now Michigan has increased a lot of hwys here up north to 65mph...so everyone is kickin' chickin' at 70mph across the UP...so I went to the NV3550 for the overdrive. 4.10 would be a nice choice w/OD too.

What are your thoughts between the AX-15 and the NV3550? It looks like they are geared pretty similarly, correct?

 

[wjtstudios]

65? They're doing 75 now! I love it

Now we are getting places! Too bad my JK gets around 10 mpg as soon as I get over 75, depending on which way the wind is blowing of course, I would love to be cruising at 85!!

 

[Scott_P]

What are your thoughts between the AX-15 and the NV3550? It looks like they are geared pretty similarly, correct?

Yes, I think the NV3550 has a slightly lower 1st gear, but not enough to be noticeable. Either trans is fine, the AX15's are probably more plentiful. You do want to stay away from the early AX15's with the internal slave cylinder. I cannot recall the year where it changed to an external, but Novak has a pretty good web site with a lot of info. I actually have one of each....the NV3550 in my Scrambler and an AX15 for a Willys wagon project.

One nice thing about these transmissions are that the first 4 gear ratios are very similar to the T-176. So very little difference in driveability except for the OD. (And I always like the T-176 gear ratio spreads.)