Needing direction...

[cattleman1977]

Just checked out Golen Engines: sounds way cool! I'll be dumping plenty into this thing without spending $3800 on engine only though.


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[cattleman1977]

I woke up this morning stewing about this silly engine, still not sure what to do. I've never been a gearhead whatsoever so I am being terribly indecisive.

Should I consider a stroker upgrade as I overhaul this engine? Is the Cummins 4BT something I should think about? It's really hard to find associated costs with these upgrades on the Internet.

 

[cattleman1977]

I just know I have the opportunity to make something pretty cool if I do it right. And it'll be something that I can enjoy for a long time.

 

[Polarfire]

I think the rebuild is going to be the cheapest and best course of action. I've never rebuilt a 258 so I can't answer the upgrades question but I'm sure there are some better cams, intakes, carb or fuel injection that will improve the performance. I think the next best thing (cost-wise) would be a 4.0 swap from a newer Jeep XJ/TJ. Lots of people have done it and and there is a ton of info on it. V8 swap would be nice but can get pricey and take longer and I think the 4BT swap is even more complex.

 

[bigwalton]

Is the Cummins 4BT something I should think about? It's really hard to find associated costs with these upgrades on the Internet.

You have to REALLY want to go diesel and be willing to live with it. Loud, heavy and lots of vibration. I would suggest finding a 4BT powered SOMETHING to ride for a good while in if you're really considering this.

In newer vehicles with more than just a flat piece of steel for the firewall between you and the engine (dash, plastic, more wiring, sound insulation, etc) the sound can be more muffled, but you'll never forget riding in or hearing a nearby 4BT powered CJ.

There's a reason you can't find costs for this type of swap, because it will vary widely and unless you're anal about recording receipts, the small things nickel and dime you to death. I speak from experience here on my 4.0L swap in the Postal. I tried to be good about reporting all the little things in my swap thread but I don't think I ever got around to totaling it all up.

Even when CJoffroad had it's great 4.0L swap section with TONS of great info about the 4.0L swaps, trying to figure out costs was next to useless. Add in labor (if needed) and you're looking at $$$.

You're right to be thinking about this long-term, but don't get so caught up in the idea of something that you lose sight of the reality of making it happen and then living with that decision long-term.

 

[wm69]

Depending on what you're going to spend on your stock top end, you might look at just swapping in a 4.0 head. You can keep your existing intake and use a carb, or swap a head and fuel injection off of a later Jeep, keeping your bottom end. You'd have to have a new exhaust header or used off of a 4.0 equipped Jeep.

Lots of info out there on swapping out the 4.0 head. When I was younger that's what I always planned on doing when I get around to rebuilding my extra engine, but in the last year or so I decided that the stock 258 really has plenty of power for how I use my Jeeps, so I'm going to just redo things stock.

 

[Polarfire]

You have to REALLY want to go diesel and be willing to live with it. Loud, heavy and lots of vibration. I would suggest finding a 4BT powered SOMETHING to ride for a good while in if you're really considering this.

In newer vehicles with more than just a flat piece of steel for the firewall between you and the engine (dash, plastic, more wiring, sound insulation, etc) the sound can be more muffled, but you'll never forget riding in or hearing a nearby 4BT powered CJ.

I agree. I went to look at a 4BT Grand Wagoneer that was for sale. It was very nicely done but it was just too loud to be used as a comfortable family vehicle.

 

[cattleman1977]

Duly noted on the 4BT. I wasn't seriously considering it, just something I had read about on here somewhere. I appreciate the feedback.

At this point, I think I'm just going to rebuild my current engine and have my head machined. I had low compression on cylinder 5 (the shot lifter was on 3) so I may have some other problems that should be addressed now. I may look into a 4.0 head swap especially if we find significant problems in my 4.2 head. I need to research that more though. I'm sure there is plenty on that here that I can read up on. I'll look into this, but if I go that route would I be better off to buy a new 4.0 head or do most people get them from a junkyard?

I also found out a neighbor is upgrading his CJ7 to a V8. He has no idea how many miles are on his 4.2 but says it runs good and has a brand new stock carb on it. He's willing to sell his engine and 5 speed transmission. I'm considering buying it for parts and the transmission. Any idea what that might be worth?


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[wm69]

Values on engines are all over the place. The T5 transmission, maybe $200 if it works ok. The T5 isn't a great transmission, so I wouldn't buy one, but you could probably sell one in working condition for a couple hundred give or take.

I got a used 258 off of Craigslist for $150 about a year ago, complete from pan to air cleaner. I sold the original carb, air cleaner, and alt and A/C compressor and brackets for $140 on ebay so I ended up with a long block with aluminum valve cover, and exhaust and intake manifolds for $10. Obviously, one has to be patient to get that kind of deal. Another ad at the same time had a 258 with TF999 automatic transmission for $500, and it sold the same day.

If the engine runs good and has good compression, I'd say $100-400 just depending on your local market and what all is included.

My plan with this one is to clean it up and sit it on an engine stand for whenever I may need it. Just a spare engine to have around.

 

[surfjeepzx]

Duly noted on the 4BT. I wasn't seriously considering it, just something I had read about on here somewhere. I appreciate the feedback.

At this point, I think I'm just going to rebuild my current engine and have my head machined. I had low compression on cylinder 5 (the shot lifter was on 3) so I may have some other problems that should be addressed now. I may look into a 4.0 head swap especially if we find significant problems in my 4.2 head. I need to research that more though. I'm sure there is plenty on that here that I can read up on. I'll look into this, but if I go that route would I be better off to buy a new 4.0 head or do most people get them from a junkyard?

I also found out a neighbor is upgrading his CJ7 to a V8. He has no idea how many miles are on his 4.2 but says it runs good and has a brand new stock carb on it. He's willing to sell his engine and 5 speed transmission. I'm considering buying it for parts and the transmission. Any idea what that might be worth?


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I think this course of action is the wisest unless the current motor proves too much to repair. You say the motor is bored .030 over. Was there an indication on the pistons that gave you this info? You also said you had low compression in #5. That could be due to head, head gasket, poorly rebuilt lower end meaning bores weren't accurate for pistons, rings are shot from lack of oil changes etc. You'll need to disassemble the engine and inspect the bearings, cyl bores for wear etc. If it can be rebuilt without major machining then that engine will work fine and with proper use and maintenance will run forever. If it will need further cyl honing (boring) oversize then I would consider the same powerplant but one that hasn't been reworked to death yet.. like the one your friend is offering.

 

[cattleman1977]

As the old saying goes, you can't get finished if you don't get started. Here's what we've got done so far:



Transmission/transfer case are out and have been pressure washed.





Transmission has been extremely sloppy; I think the problem is in the shift rails or in the shift tower. That will be addressed. Transfer case has also been very difficult to get out of four-wheel-drive as noted earlier in this thread. I forgot to take a picture of it but there is a cast bracket that goes around the transfer case shift rails. Upon removal I noticed that it is broken. This will be addressed also but I am hoping it does not require complete rebuild of the transfer case as that looks to be fairly involved.

We also finished pulling the engine.





The pistons are stamped .030 on top and the rods and main bearings are stamped .010 so evidently that's been machined some too.

I also removed the under hood wiring harness completely so there will be no temptation to try to repair it. A painless will be ordered soon. I also removed the exhaust front to rear and will be replacing that with new.

Still need to drop the fuel tank in order to address some issues that exist there.

At this point I'm so far along that I am considering replacing the fenders as well. However, if I do that I might as well go all in and strip it clear to the frame, sandblast everything, repair all sheet metal, and paint the entire thing.

I think I have posted these up in this thread already but here are some of the body issues I have:





I also have some dents in the bed and tailgate that could be addressed at this time as well.

I guess I officially have a build thread at this point...

 

[surfjeepzx]

There's no turning back now!
The frame looks good and the sheet metal work on the body is easy stuff especially if you plan on separating them.
Regarding the engine. I would be hesitant to put any more money into that motor since it was already worked through once. The cylinder walls had to be pretty out of round, grooved, or just plain so wore out that they had to go that far to get a clean straight bore. Typically you can get pistons in 10, 20, 30 over so they skipped two sizes which tells me that motor is done. Additionally the crank was ground which means you'll probably have to work it again. I'll bet you take some time and look around you can find a running I-6 that at the most needs an oil pan gasket and valve cover gasket for a fraction of the rebuild cost to the original motor... if that's the original motor.
Also since you're planning on a new harness maybe consider a newer 4.0 EFI motor from a newer Jeep.

 

[tower210]

I wish there was a better plug-and-play solution for the scrambler. 350's are cheap and easy to find, but it is "hotted up" a bit then the stock CJ tranny and axels aren't enough. 5.3's are cheap and easy to find, but the same problem, only worse.... The fuel injected 200HP - 260 lb. ft. 4.3's seem to be a cheap easy answer (can buy a 100K mile pulled motor for less than $1K) - but it's not a jeep motor..........

 

[surfjeepzx]

Look into the YJ 4.0. 87-95?

Examples: 5 minute craigslist search in KS.

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/4991764147.html <<< This one you get all the extra goodies. Do a compression test first before you buy it.

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pts/4987810556.html

 

[surfjeepzx]

I found this one in my neck of the woods.

http://daytona.craigslist.org/pts/4979656221.html

 

[cattleman1977]

Yeah, I have a couple employees that are helping me with this project that think a 350 would be the way to go, but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing there was a GM under the hood... Not a Chevy guy.

Got a bit more done today. Started by dropping the fuel tank.



Once I got it apart I found a crack that had been repaired.





Skid plate isn't bad but isn't great either.





I also removed the 1/2 top, bulkhead, and the Wagoneer seats. The bulkhead isn't horrible other than a hole at the top behind the drivers seat.







Originally, I liked the Wagoneer seats but now I'm not sure. The bulkhead is probably not a big issue due to wanting to put two bench seats in for the kids.

The worst sheet metal problem I found (other than the body mounts I already knew about) was a crack under the drivers seat that had a piece of plate steel covering it like a washer.



I pressure washed the entire thing, undercarriage and all and didn't see any problems with the frame.

The floor pans have a couple patches. Probably will only worry about these if I decide to completely restore body.



We also tore the engine down. Everything looks good other than the initial problem. Cam was almost completely rounded where the lifter was bad. Is there a specific rebuild kit any of you would recommend? What about a the cam: rv, high perf...?







I also spoke for the 258 with 5-speed for $200. This includes the all but new OEM carb. Didn't think I could get hurt at that price. I haven't seen it yet, but he says that a mechanic at our local dodge dealer say a 5-star stamp on it indicates that it's not factory but was sold by Chrysler?

He likely won't get it pulled for a few weeks but if I decide to redo the body/frame I'll have time to determine which engine to use.

I know this is lengthy and a lot of pics but y'all say you like pics and it's a great way to document/keep my thoughts organized/get some good input.

Thanks

 

[walkerhoundvm]

Sheesh, that's a lot of work. So what time do you think you'll finish up tomorrow?

 

[surfjeepzx]

There must be an oil starvation issue in the oil gallery to that journal of the cam. The head should be completely stripped, tanked and thoroughly cleaned. Oil galleries cleaned. etc. You have the option of stuffing any engine you want in there but then it loses the AMC flavor. By staying AMC you can mix and match and everything bolts right up with AMC stock parts. The minute you change manufactures then everything requires a kit for this and that. There's plenty of AMC stuff out there to work with.

If I were you I would get all the cost numbers on rebuilding that engine. To get accurate info you'll need to how far out all the tolerances are and what can be worked and what is done. Once again, I see a motor that has been used, rebuilt to, or close to the end of its tolerances, and is worn out again as evidenced by the cam journal. Look for a good used engine that is plug and play as mentioned previously. You'll be dollars and time ahead. They're out there everywhere.

 

[cattleman1977]

Tomorrow?!? I'm still worried about what time we're going to be finished today!





Started at 6 AM this morning, managed to get all the wrenching done in between trips to the field to keep corn seed in the planter. Almost 250 acres planted today.

surfjeepzx-
Your concern about this engine is scaring me a bit. I haven't quite given up on it yet, a mechanic that works for me seems to think it should be just fine. However, I am going to compare it to this engine I just bought today. I greatly appreciate all of your input, and by the way, I love your scrambler! It's 8's like yours that have me considering stripping mine clear to the frame. Matter of fact, that is looking more likely every day. If I had your talent at painting there would be no doubt!

 

[walkerhoundvm]

What I meant is when will you be done with the jeep!

We're planting our 3, 12' rows of corn tomorrow Tomatoes, peppers, and gourd vegetables have been in the ground a couple weeks already.