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What if the goverment had bailed out AMC

Two years ago we needed a new car for our single child family. My wife wanted all wheel drive for our steep driveway. I wanted something with enough space for our active lifestyle and decent performance (not lumbering or boring). We bought a car from a company that offered what we wanted (Subaru) instead of trying to sell us what we did not need (Ford). I feel no shame for that decision.

Next year we want to replace our Jetta (we have had it for 10 years). I want another small sports sedan with a manual transmission. If I want an "American car", I will have to buy it in Europe. Look at http://www.ford.co.uk build a Focus there, and then go to www.ford.com and build a Focus here. Which car would you want to take for a spin on a twisty back road.:evil:

It has nothing to do with assuming that American cars have poor build quality or are too expensive. We can build great cars, we just choose not to I guess. I see nothing patriotic about buying what I do not want or need. Just offer me transportation I can live with, and I will buy it.

Rob
 
If the big three were not shipping jobs to mexico...i might be more patriotic...if i was buying a truck i would probably buy american...i also bought a malibu last year and love it.....but u cant imagine the quality of the honda i bought in september....when it is time to change the oil it is still so clear that u cant see it on the dipstick...and that is after spending alot of time with the tach at 8500 rpm
 
Thanks, guys (Hi Scott!)

The best thing about being around here is that a guy can give an opinion and not be battered for it. I guess the "T" word isn't on the list, besides kids don't know what it means in this context. For those I offended, please accept my apology, I got caught in the moment. (I removed it)

I agree that only time will tell, but I guess if I had to refine what I said, it would be (minus politics):

1. Think about what you do and how it affects others, particularly your family and offspring. Do that and you'll never have to wake up at 3 AM thinking bad thoughts about yourself.

2. Never, EVER give up on Americans, even if you disagree with them. Buy American, regardless of how you feel about the American system, it's the ONLY way to truly invest in your country.

3. Get down on your knees every night and Thank God you're an American. You are blessed beyond imagination.

4. Know you have a true friend in me.

Paul

Notes;

Rob, I respect your opinion, it wasn't a lot different for me before I grew older. Once I understood my responsibilities to my children's future, I shifted from liberal to conservative.... consciously. There comes a time when you must choose between what you want to do and what you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD do. That applies to every facet of your life, including selecting vehicles.

Twmattox, I agree, but not sure why. No need to be shy if you do disagree. Hopefully, you're right about this taking years, actually we're stuck for exactly 4 years, then the healing WILL begin, God willing. In any case I have faith in ALL Americans, even those who disagree with what I believe. We're all brothers in God's eye, under whose sweet grace, this wonderful country was formed.

Dave, I agree on most of your points. I was in the UAW years ago and hated it because it sucked the incentive and creativity out of very talented people. I worked in design as a clay modeler, normally a creative endeavor, but pretty much tamped down by the fact that even if you excelled, you could never get ahead of the guy in front of you on the seniority list, so why bother? I DID and was universally hated. As far as the "Buy American" part of my rant goes, the simple litmus test you should use to decide is: Where does the "Final" profit go. In other words, after everyone is paid for their labor, materials, executive wages, even. Where does the last penny go? America, or Japan, Korea, Germany, Italy(Italy? What was I thinking?)? It's irrelevant where they manufacture the vehicle, or sadly who assembles it. Tennesseeans or whoever. If the final profit leaves our shores, we ALL lose. I've been import-free since '84.

Canzo (I forget your real name, sorry), It's true, but then there's a fine line between Socialism and Communism. You analysis is correct, though, and unless Americans work together against both, the shiftless, lazy and greedy in America will prevail and our land and way of life is doomed. I'd hate to think that part of the legacy I leave to my children and grandchildren is that I capitulated to Evil and sentenced them to the resulting chains. Your Jefferson quote is perfect, Thanks!

I have no idea why I'm so windy these days. Maybe it's that I simply refuse to lay down and accept the decrepit path our great country has taken without a fight or a whimper.

Check out my blog at http://paulsvfr.blogspot.com/ and see my other love. It seems I've split my loyalty a bit. I know, I know it's a Honda, but in this case, I just can't see me on a Harley and what else is made in America. Besides, this thing is really fast(faster than ANY Harley) and with a V-4, really Smmmoooth. Imagine doing 150 on a Hog!!(neither can I)

Take care, drive (and ride) safe
 
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Paul is one of those guys that i really hope i meet someday...we have agreed and disagreed on here many times..and i always got the utmost respect for paul...even when we disagree.....i can just tell he is a class act and i hope to meet him one day...ill buy the beer

I think it is because i know Paul is always honest..whether i agree with him or not...that means alot
 
bigwalton said:
Yeah, there's a small minority of "little guys" I do/will feel sorry for, but on the whole, a business model that's based solely on supplying/servicing the auto industry (with what we all knew would eventually happen to oil reserves) wasn't too smart.

I think that these folks (again generalizing), like the big three, should have seen things coming a long time ago (and the freak spike in gas prices is not what did them in here, it just accelerated/exaggerated what was already coming) and taken steps to protect themselves.

The ones I will feel for are the restaurant owners/non-auto business owners in the areas/towns that are sure to be devastated whether they a) go into bankruptcy now or b) get the loans, default for lack of making any real changes and go bankrupt later.
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Well sadly I am one of those "little guys"--If GM goes down--I risk the chance of loosing alot as I am the sole provider for my family :(
 
as alot of you guys know..my job is in the automotive industry..we are tier 1 suppliers...but if i lost my job for capitalism to work..i willl find something else...i am scared shtless about the socialist trend i am seeing
 
scott anderson said:
as alot of you guys know..my job is in the automotive industry..we are tier 1 suppliers...but if i lost my job for capitalism to work..i willl find something else...i am scared shtless about the socialist trend i am seeing
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Therein lies part of the problem. Everyone thinks we have a true capitalistic economy. However, we don't. We have a managed economy and have had for the last 100 years or more. Bear in mind that there is a dramatic difference in a managed economy and a socilist economy. In socialism the government owns things and you are provided for at a "fair" price. In a managed economy, the government regulates the businesses that are owned by someone else. In theory, this regulation is there to "protect us" and for good reason.

A true capitalistic economy has a large flaw...the rich. What began to happen was individuals like Carnegie used their wealth to create monopolies. If you wanted steel, you had to get it from him. If you got it somewhere else, he would either put them out of business or buy them. In this way, he was able to control the steel price (effectively by-passing the system). The cost for starting a steel company was prohibitive, especially if you knew the outcome.

This was in a time of relatively no government intervention... No child labor laws, no OSHA, no environmental regulation, nothing. Supply and demand dictates that if the general population did not approve of his actions, they would put him out of business by purchasing their goods somewhere else. But, there was no somewhere else.

Then factor in the labor force in general. The jobs were dangerous, long hours, miserable conditions, and no pay. Supply and demand did not work here. It couldn't. To begin, his steel was not bought by the general population but by other businesses. These businesses were not looking out for their own worker's best interest let alone the interest of a worker from another business. They were simply trying to make more money for their share holders (which more times than not were wealthy as well). The government was unable to get involved for a multitude of reasons; so, it took unions to force a change here. This was a horrible time in American history with lots of violence and has resulted in the current union situation.

In principal, a skilled trade union is a great thing; however, skirts supply and demand as well. On one hand you hire a known skilled worker who has undergone an apprenticeship and is able to perform the task desired. On the other, you get a cartel (like it or not...a union is a labor cartel) that can fix prices and strong arm businesses. As I tried to spell out above, the unions are a direct result of a lack of government regulation and (unfortunately) will require additional regulation to eliminate.

In my opinion, Capitalism is similar to Communism (just opposite extremes of the same philosophy). As many of us know, extremes don't work. What we have struggled with is finding our footing on the common ground in the middle that works...and is seems like we are getting ready to take another step.
 
how does ur theory deal with the growing throngs that want to live off the community wealth...seems everyone want to be taken care of by the goverment...killes incentive...people wanting a handout from the goverment is the death of our country....and i fear we have already traveled too far down that road to reverse course......i remember election night seing a lady look at the camera and say barrack is gonna pay my mortgage!!!....good luck with that
 
It's like any other 'entitlement'...you just have to pick a point and rip the band-aid off. It'll be a fight and there'll be lots of sob stories and hand-wringing. The statistics (yeah, I know) don't bear out any huge percentage of folks sucking off the welfare teat. Most folks will go out and work and support themselves and their family/progeny. It'll take a generation or two after the band-aid ripping to get most of the remainder in line, but things will never be perfect...think 'bell curve'. You have extremes at either end: communism - capitalism, devil worshippers - holy rollers, liberals - conservatives, etc. Most folks fall at varying degrees in between.

Let's give the man a chance just like every president before him. I think the 'evil' comments, etc are going a bit too far. He's going to do things that you like and things that you don't like...you can please some of the people...
And no, I didn't vote for him but that's who we got so let's make the best of it. As a 'black' man, I can appreciate the symbolism & significance of his victory, and it was quite an emotional moment explaining things to my 12 year old son who's never had the 'N' word uttered in his direction, but I don't think that he was 'our' best 'first'. My father is big into politics and has held a few local offices...probably one of the few truly honest politicians out there. Worked his regular full-time job and sought office in order to serve the public and try to make a difference/make things better, not see what he could get out of it for himself...he didn't even keep his salary (didn't need it), he put it into a scholarship program for math & science students. His position is this: most politicians are not our best and brightest. If you're that good and that smart, you'll be in the private sector making big money. Running the government is like running a business and most of these politicians have no real business knowledge/savvy and therefore do a lousy job in office. If and when this country/system falls, it's not going to be a big, sudden thud...our descendants will wake up one day, look around, read through a banned history book and realize what happened.
 
And the whining from the UAW beginneth . . . .

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/ma...aw-president-uaw-workers-treated-differently/

Shut up, suck it up and rep the UAW members fairly. I applaud the GOP members for demanding more of the UAW and Gettelfinger. Regardless they will still walk away better off than all other employees in this country in terms of security and support if they fold. Sorry folks--why should we secure UAW jobs when ours aren't and will not be secured by the US Government and our tax dollars? I know mine won't . . . so my concern for their jobs is about zippo . . . . I am prepared to make my way without the hand of the government ensuring my future, we all should be, otherwise it is indeed socialism . . . . and redistribution of wealth . . . .

Note for those who support the Big 3 in a sub contract role--this bail out will NOT secure the small businesses downstream, not when they start cost cutting and restructuring. Product lines will be dropped, production decreased even more and there will be more parts going overseas to lower cost. If anyone really thinks this is about the little guy and maintaining non-union jobs then I've got an 86 Scrambler with 2 miles on the odo for you and the sale price is but $1! Ooops, damn , the cat is out of the bag!
 
"The Industrial Revolution, to me, is just like a story I know... called The Puppy Who Lost His Way. The world was changing...and the puppy was getting.....bigger.....

~montage

.....so, you see, the puppy was like industry...in that they were both
lost in the woods...and nobody, especially the little boy (society) knew where to find them. Except that the puppy... was a dog. But the industry, my friends...that was a revolution.


Knibb High football rules!"


-Billy Madison
 
the goverment has no business picking the winners and losers...that is what free market is for...i think gm an chrysler should go bankrupt..i would however support the goverment insuring the warranty....like someone said earlier..i will really consider a ford next time..because the are trying their best to survive with a handout...

like dave said..why should my tax dollars go to prop up someones pensions and inflated wages when...i dont have a pension or inflated wage.
 
I can see and appreciate what you are trying to say... But, remember this is not a "free market" economy we are dealing with. The US Government has dictated to auto makers certain things that must be in the vehicles (CAFE)...in a free market, this would have been dictated by purchasers.

Also, remember that there are a slew of foreign companies that would love to purchase certain aspects of "the big 3". Jeep, Buick, Cadillac, Corvette, parts of all 3 truck markets, Mustang, 300, Taurus, Caravan... All of these make money and are desirable to up and coming auto manufacturers (Kia, Hundai, Tata, etc). By purchasing these brands and designs they get the good and don't get the bad (high union wages, historic pensions, etc). Also, the money for these items would get funneled out of this country...even though the big 3 have exported jobs, they still make the most American cars available (considering all aspects of the vehicle). That would change! I shudder to think what would happen if we lost that much manufacturing capability. It would harm us not only on a financial level but also on a national defense level.

I hate to say it, but I am in favor of a "loan". I am also in favor of government limitations on that loan. I know this sounds somewhat like socialism...but it absolutely irks me that a company would borrow money from us and move jobs to another country...that aspect needs to be regulated along with salaries of executives.

I know many are against the union...to a large degree I am to. However, what I am more against is the business breaking its promise to the workers. My grandfather worked for an auto company and retired from there in the '80s. Part of the agreement for his years of service was a pension to take care of both him and my grandmother. He has since passed away and my grandmother is now faced with possibly having no form of income (she never worked outside the house therefore social security is not available). This was an agreement, granted made during good times. However, it absolutely irritates me that the company is looking to break this agreement (especially when thier CEO is making 8.4 million/year and they have hundreds of executives making similar figure salaries). The company should be forced to sacrifice this before touching the pension plans etc of retired workers and their families.
 
And therein lies part of the problem. Due to personal issues, most people are approaching this in a very subjective manner.

I disagree with the suggestion that people making less than 6 figures should band together and bail out a company who's leaders aren't willing to reinvest in their own companies. As you pointed out, many of the upper level execs are making the equivilent. Let them pool their millions and work within their means. Even with a loan, they're going to lay off tens of thousands, anyway.

My 2 cents? I think that the loan would further enable non-productive business practices and they would inevitably fail, anyway. Based on the business leader history, I believe we'd be revisiting this issue in a short matter of time, despite whatever regulations that would be invoked.

A disfunctional business model is a disfunctional business model. Let them fall. Perhaps a new age of automobile manufacturing would take place. Rememeber Edsel, Packard, Wyllis, AMC, etc.? Maybe some entrepreneurs could emerge with realistic automobile energy solutions.

It's the circle of life. :evil:
 
You are correct, I do approach some of this with some bias. However, I do my best to temper it by studying all sides of the argument and forming my own personal opinion (that is all these are anyway...personal opinion). Believe me, I do not side with the union...and I do not side with the business...in fact, I don't even side with the way the government is handling the situation.

In a perfect world, these failed companies would quietly go under and their assets would be bought by their competitors. However, we are not looking at a quiet scenario. We are looking at a scenario that could cause massive strain on all of us (both in regards to our economy and our safety). I think that mandates our government at least explore these opportunities.
 
If the big three are baoled out the top execs NEED TO BE FIRED because they have already shown the world that they can't run it or it wouldn't be in the shape that they're in now. Also the execs assets should be seized and liqudated and put back into the companies, and let them live like the rest of us in the real world. AGAIN FIRE THE TOP EXECS.

Don
 
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