1983 Restore in Ga 4bt cummins goin in now
- Thread starter gaducker
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gaducker
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- City
- Newnan
- State
- ga
Took it to an away high school football game for a shake down run. Forty miles each way all interstate pulling a trailer full of band props.
Didnt miss a lick and it pulled like a mule in 5th gear up to 80mph and it had alot more left thats just where i got scared.
Didnt miss a lick and it pulled like a mule in 5th gear up to 80mph and it had alot more left thats just where i got scared.
- City
- Colorado Springs
- State
- CO
Maybe I missed it but are you running a two pc front drive shaft?
gaducker
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- City
- Newnan
- State
- ga
one piece.
I am running a yj drive shaft that I shortend by about 5 inches and put a two inch sch forty tube over the long end.
I am going to get a tom woods double cardan driveshaft for the rear.
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W.R.Buchanan
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Ojai
- State
- CA
Read the post on 4BTSWAPS.com Looks like you have a winner.
You were saying somewhere that you thought you did the build backwards by doing all the mechanical first then going after the body?
I think you did it the right way as it is always easier to get the mechanical done first then take it apart do the body and paint then reassemble.
Then you don't have to worry about gooning your nice paint while fabricating a bumper or something underneath.
Do keep these guys posted on your fuel mileage figures, It will be good to make them super jealous as none of their gas powered Jeeps will never break 20 mpg let alone 30. Maybe they'll get the idea and repower with a 4BT.
Incidentially guys the 4BT Cummins motor is just about THE prefect motor for a Scrambler. Plenty of power, tons of torque, great reliability and great fuel mileage. All with no computer!
Randy
You were saying somewhere that you thought you did the build backwards by doing all the mechanical first then going after the body?
I think you did it the right way as it is always easier to get the mechanical done first then take it apart do the body and paint then reassemble.
Then you don't have to worry about gooning your nice paint while fabricating a bumper or something underneath.
Do keep these guys posted on your fuel mileage figures, It will be good to make them super jealous as none of their gas powered Jeeps will never break 20 mpg let alone 30. Maybe they'll get the idea and repower with a 4BT.
Incidentially guys the 4BT Cummins motor is just about THE prefect motor for a Scrambler. Plenty of power, tons of torque, great reliability and great fuel mileage. All with no computer!
Randy
gaducker
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Newnan
- State
- ga
A bunch of kids rolled up beside me in a four door jk going down the interstate yesterday and it was all dooded up with a lift and thirty fives and they were
laughin and pointin at the scrambler acting like it was loud and obnoxious well it was an auto jk and when they tried to pull off the jk dropped
a gear and went to straining and barley even pulled away. I just grinned as I spooled up and quickly went from 60 to 85 mph
and I just waved as I rolled on by. When I backed out of it and they caught up they just whizzed right on by, They didnt even look at
me when they went by. It was priceless, wished I would have had a video of it.
laughin and pointin at the scrambler acting like it was loud and obnoxious well it was an auto jk and when they tried to pull off the jk dropped
a gear and went to straining and barley even pulled away. I just grinned as I spooled up and quickly went from 60 to 85 mph
and I just waved as I rolled on by. When I backed out of it and they caught up they just whizzed right on by, They didnt even look at
me when they went by. It was priceless, wished I would have had a video of it.
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W.R.Buchanan
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Ojai
- State
- CA
Most have no idea what they are looking at.
In Brazil you can buy a Ford F250 truck with a 4cyl 4.5L QSB Cummins motor.. This is the same engine currently powering all the new UPS and FedX trucks. That motor is the 4 cyl version of the 6.7 L ISB Cummins six in the current Dodge Trucks. Unfortunately you can't get one here. But Dodge and Chevy also have 4 cyl diesel trucks waiting in the wings and they are all just waitng for one or another to come to market, in which case the others will respond. Been this way for the last 8-10 years, I was told this same story by all three marks at SEMA2003!
The 4BT Cummins motor routinely delivers mid to high 20's fuel mileage in a 4,500 lb vehicle, and this motor in a Scrambler is just such a cool combination and it delivers well beyond it's size.
People don't realize that the motor in turbo'd but not aftercooled tune, (IE CPL 858, common bread truck motor) delivers 105 HP and 275 ft lbs of torque. That's the same torque as a 350 chevy motor. It is also exactly the same state of tune as the 6BT in my Dodge Truck which is at 160hp and 400ftlb or exactly 2/3 the hp and torque of the 6 with only 4 cyl.
IE: 26.66 hp per cylinder.
MY truck weighs 8200 lbs and my Jeep will weigh around 4000 lbs so it should be faster than the truck. The truck does 0-60 in around 12 seconds! That's plenty fast.
My MBZ 300SD is 0 60 in 22 seconds!
4BT's with aftercoolers run around 125 hp, and with the turbo off a 6 and some tweaking they usually end up around 160 hp. Still way over 20 mpg!
160hp and 400 ftlbs of torque is way more powerful than a chevy motor, and way more fuel efficient.
Here's the deal guys Gasoline is about 10,000BTU's per pound, and Diesel is 18,000BTU's per pound. See why trucks use diesels?
What are you guys waiting for?
Randy
In Brazil you can buy a Ford F250 truck with a 4cyl 4.5L QSB Cummins motor.. This is the same engine currently powering all the new UPS and FedX trucks. That motor is the 4 cyl version of the 6.7 L ISB Cummins six in the current Dodge Trucks. Unfortunately you can't get one here. But Dodge and Chevy also have 4 cyl diesel trucks waiting in the wings and they are all just waitng for one or another to come to market, in which case the others will respond. Been this way for the last 8-10 years, I was told this same story by all three marks at SEMA2003!
The 4BT Cummins motor routinely delivers mid to high 20's fuel mileage in a 4,500 lb vehicle, and this motor in a Scrambler is just such a cool combination and it delivers well beyond it's size.
People don't realize that the motor in turbo'd but not aftercooled tune, (IE CPL 858, common bread truck motor) delivers 105 HP and 275 ft lbs of torque. That's the same torque as a 350 chevy motor. It is also exactly the same state of tune as the 6BT in my Dodge Truck which is at 160hp and 400ftlb or exactly 2/3 the hp and torque of the 6 with only 4 cyl.
IE: 26.66 hp per cylinder.
MY truck weighs 8200 lbs and my Jeep will weigh around 4000 lbs so it should be faster than the truck. The truck does 0-60 in around 12 seconds! That's plenty fast.
My MBZ 300SD is 0 60 in 22 seconds!
4BT's with aftercoolers run around 125 hp, and with the turbo off a 6 and some tweaking they usually end up around 160 hp. Still way over 20 mpg!
160hp and 400 ftlbs of torque is way more powerful than a chevy motor, and way more fuel efficient.
Here's the deal guys Gasoline is about 10,000BTU's per pound, and Diesel is 18,000BTU's per pound. See why trucks use diesels?
What are you guys waiting for?
Randy
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- City
- Colorado Springs
- State
- CO
For a mostly stock CJ (7 or 8) why not a Cummins B3.3T? While the 4.5QSB would be awesome...like WRB said, its not available here. 
The 3.3 however IS! 
The 3.3 however IS!
W.R.Buchanan
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Ojai
- State
- CA
Jeep dreamer: the engine is available here, it's just not available in a Ford truck.
Several over at 4BTSWAPS have used them. They run around 170 hp stock and can be tweaked with the computer. See Hulk Green's thread.
A wrecked van would be your cheapest source, but don't expect to get one for nothing, Expect $5-7K for the motor trans and computer and hopefully all the related BS like the throttle pedal to make it run.
The 3.3's have ben used also, seen several in Grand Cherokees. Not as cheap as 4BT's but still affordable. Not nearly as much power 75-90hp and harder to tweak.
The 4 cyl B series motors are available in HP ratings from 48 to 250 hp. N/a Motors are usually in generators and stationary equipment.75HP and above are turbo'd, 125 and above have intercoolers. Most stock motors above 150 HP are usually in boats. The 250 hp motor is strictly a boat motor due to cooling requirements and it is only a 12% duty cycle motor. IE you can only run it at max power for 8 minutes and hour. Mind you there is no coasting in boats they ar always going up hill. They seem to get good service life out of motors in the 150- 200hp range in boats.
In automotive applications you can run higher HP's because there is coasting involved and seldom are you going to run the motor at full power with a full load on it for anything close to 8 minutes.
Lots to learn here.
Randy
Several over at 4BTSWAPS have used them. They run around 170 hp stock and can be tweaked with the computer. See Hulk Green's thread.
A wrecked van would be your cheapest source, but don't expect to get one for nothing, Expect $5-7K for the motor trans and computer and hopefully all the related BS like the throttle pedal to make it run.
The 3.3's have ben used also, seen several in Grand Cherokees. Not as cheap as 4BT's but still affordable. Not nearly as much power 75-90hp and harder to tweak.
The 4 cyl B series motors are available in HP ratings from 48 to 250 hp. N/a Motors are usually in generators and stationary equipment.75HP and above are turbo'd, 125 and above have intercoolers. Most stock motors above 150 HP are usually in boats. The 250 hp motor is strictly a boat motor due to cooling requirements and it is only a 12% duty cycle motor. IE you can only run it at max power for 8 minutes and hour. Mind you there is no coasting in boats they ar always going up hill. They seem to get good service life out of motors in the 150- 200hp range in boats.
In automotive applications you can run higher HP's because there is coasting involved and seldom are you going to run the motor at full power with a full load on it for anything close to 8 minutes.
Lots to learn here.
Randy
gaducker
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Newnan
- State
- ga
For a mostly stock CJ (7 or 8) why not a Cummins B3.3T? While the 4.5QSB would be awesome...like WRB said, its not available here.
I guess it would be cool to have one of those motors and they would be less noise and vibration but then you have to deal with the computer and all the related break downs due to elec problems. This motor will run with fuel and three wires, thats how simple it is.
My motor has 68k miles on it and I fully expect to drive this jeep till I pass on and then my son who has really helped out on the build will drive it till who knows when but with the stock tune i feel like it should run forever.
W.R.Buchanan
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Ojai
- State
- CA
That's exactly the way I look at it myself.
Randy
Randy
MarknessMonster
Amiable Jeeper
- City
- Western
- State
- CO
If I had the patience and funding, I'd convert all my vehicles to diesel. I dislike the way vehicle-gasoline is being manipulated and the short shelf-life it provides within its current form.
W.R.Buchanan
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Ojai
- State
- CA
i agree but really many times, like right now diesel is more expensive than Premium gas, although it never should be.
I actually have a big problem with that, as Fuel Companies are being allowed to ship refined diesel over seas instead of filling this market first. This results in shortages and thus in sky high prices ($4.49/gal here in CA).
However the biggest problem is that it affects the prices of EVERYTHING! cuz everything is moved by diesel truck. This is a direct product of this adminstrations policies nothing else. This is negatively effecting all of us signifivcantly.
If I was running things the oil companies would get all the drilling leases they wanted in exchange for building about 10 more refineries.
Keystone pipeline immediately. Within a couple of years we'd have enough oil flowing to cover all the needs of the US. All domestic oil would stay here and if they wanted to bring foreign oil in to refine and send elsewhere fine, as long as US needs were satisfied FIRST!
This policy would bring down prices of fuel and as a result everything else.
IF it stays the way it is we all suffer.
The upside of diesel is the higher fuel efficiency which in most cases offsets the difference in cost, and when you throw in the reduced maintenance costs, and the reliability of the engines,,, It works out in your favor.
If he energy polices were right, it would be a no brainer. IN Europe 60% of all new cars sold are diesel.
like I said above 10K btu's per pound for gas and 18K btu's per pound for diesel. The fuel has nearly twice the energy per unit it doesn't take a brainiac to figure out it is more economical.
Randy
I actually have a big problem with that, as Fuel Companies are being allowed to ship refined diesel over seas instead of filling this market first. This results in shortages and thus in sky high prices ($4.49/gal here in CA).
However the biggest problem is that it affects the prices of EVERYTHING! cuz everything is moved by diesel truck. This is a direct product of this adminstrations policies nothing else. This is negatively effecting all of us signifivcantly.
If I was running things the oil companies would get all the drilling leases they wanted in exchange for building about 10 more refineries.
Keystone pipeline immediately. Within a couple of years we'd have enough oil flowing to cover all the needs of the US. All domestic oil would stay here and if they wanted to bring foreign oil in to refine and send elsewhere fine, as long as US needs were satisfied FIRST!
This policy would bring down prices of fuel and as a result everything else.
IF it stays the way it is we all suffer.
The upside of diesel is the higher fuel efficiency which in most cases offsets the difference in cost, and when you throw in the reduced maintenance costs, and the reliability of the engines,,, It works out in your favor.
If he energy polices were right, it would be a no brainer. IN Europe 60% of all new cars sold are diesel.
like I said above 10K btu's per pound for gas and 18K btu's per pound for diesel. The fuel has nearly twice the energy per unit it doesn't take a brainiac to figure out it is more economical.
Randy
MarknessMonster
Amiable Jeeper
- City
- Western
- State
- CO
Having new tires installed on my work truck, I was at a Ford dealer wandering around the lot for about an hour last week. I looked at Explorer's, Focus', Taurus' and other family-type vehicles. Had a salesperson approached me about buying a new vehicle, I would have objected to two missing options that I am becoming more and more firm within my prefered list of vehicle specifications; there were no manual transmission vehicles on the lot, nor where there any diesels (other than work trucks).
Sooner or later, I'll be in the market for a family-type vehicle and it appears I'll be without an American-made manufacturer from which to select a new vehicle. I would probably buy a new car Monday, as an alternate work vehicle, if I had seen one of those small Fiesta, Focus or Fusion models with a manual 5 or 6 speed transmission mounted behind a small hp diesel engine. Heck, the gasoline fuel economy is close to 40mpg in the first two, so I can hardly imagine what a diesel would provide (other than consider the stories about the current Euro Ford diesels that achieve 65 mpg).
Sooner or later, I'll be in the market for a family-type vehicle and it appears I'll be without an American-made manufacturer from which to select a new vehicle. I would probably buy a new car Monday, as an alternate work vehicle, if I had seen one of those small Fiesta, Focus or Fusion models with a manual 5 or 6 speed transmission mounted behind a small hp diesel engine. Heck, the gasoline fuel economy is close to 40mpg in the first two, so I can hardly imagine what a diesel would provide (other than consider the stories about the current Euro Ford diesels that achieve 65 mpg).
MarknessMonster
Amiable Jeeper
- City
- Western
- State
- CO
I understand what you're asking, and this doesn't answer your question specifically, but these comparable engines are available all over the world except the USA. As mentioned above, Ford makes a small diesel for Ford cars in Europe.
BMW, although not American, had recently won the International Engine-of-the-Year award for many consecutive years with a small hp, high torque diesel engine that installs into their 4-door sedans in Europe. In an independent test, this standard diesel-powered 4-door BMW sedan beat the toyota prius hybrid in fuel efficiency in both highway and city driving during a competitve comparison road test from Southern Italy to Northern Germany and back. The diesel-powered BMW, being a much larger car, beating the world's most popular hybrid in both driving types...that's very impressive! Yet, in the USA we forgo efficencies because we worry about smelly fuel, loud engines, and a slightly higher cost of fuel.
W.R.Buchanan
Legacy Registered User
- City
- Ojai
- State
- CA
It should be noted that ALL of the european car makers have diesel models. All of the big MBZ, BMW, Audi, are available with diesels. Note: all of Audi's race cars are diesel powdered and they win everything! All of those luxury cars are neither loud nor smelly. The large ones are expensive the S350 Bluetec ( S class large sedan with small diesel) is $91K. They also have a V8 version which is not for sale here. BMW and Audi have similar cars, not to mention all of the smaller diesel powered cars all of these marks have. I have seen both new 3 and 5 series BMW sedans and wagons with diesels recently on the road. Owners were smiling! They are coming, it's just a matter of time. VW's Golf Jetta and Passat diesels are already here and are nice cars.
We make diesels here too. Did you know that the Grand Cherokee is available as a diesel? It was supposed to be released in 2010, however our Pres. stopped it as part of the UAW/ Fiat buyout of Chrysler.
They still make that vehilce here in the US in Toledo OH however they are all shipped overseas. Same with the Wrangler, all diesel powered versions are sold elsewhere. But not here.
As far as US made Diesel engines comparable to the Cummins 4BT there are none. The Ford and Chevy diesels used in pickups are not suitable for a Jeep type application.Too Big! Toyota and Nissan both make diesel engines which are excellent but not readily available here.
Some guys over at 4BTSWAPS are using the Kubota V2203 motor which has 48 HP stock and are claiming some pretty outragous performance figures. They are turboing them and getting Freeway speeds and 40+ MPG's in Ranger pickups. One guy is doing a Jeep but I think he is going to be disappointed with the performance when the swap is done. IN a 2500lb Flat Fender I could see the motor working well. In a 4,000lb+ TJ, not so much.
Several guys over there have used VW diesels to repower Toyota pickups,and Suzuki Samurai's with excellent results. This shows matching the size and output of the engine to a suitable vehicle as being one of the primary functions of repowering. All of these VW swaps into intermediate sized vehicles have resulted in very serviceable vehicles.
The reason why 4BT's are so popular is because a few years ago Interstate Brands was pushed into receivership and had to dispose of all of it's older fleet vehicles. Many of these delivery vans had Cummins 4BT engines swapped in because the Chevy 6's died immediately and the Cummins motors gave good service and lasted. There were approximately 3000 sold with these engines, and that pile of engines have been the source for several years. i looked for along time for one before I found Dove Bid. and was made aware by a guy who was converting M37 ex military trucks to diesel power using used bread truck motors.
All of those vehicles which were sold by Dovebid.com are now gone,(I got mine in 05) but many of the engines are still floating around albeit at higher prices than before but still out there. Plus there are many new and rebuilt long blocks on Ebay for sale so these engines will continue in service until they are outlawed. CaseTractors also use this engine.
To give you an idea, I paid $1225 for my van out of Phoenix AZ. The van had 709K on it and was on it's third Cummins motor. My motor has 82K on it. The core charge for that motor at Cummins is $2000.! and a complete Cummins recon 4BT is around $6-8K. Depending on who you get it from.
Gaduckers motor only has 62K on it and like mine will last literally forever unless something out of the ordinary happens to it.
If you look at automotive engine life in hours as opposed to miles you can get another perspective on how this adds up. Figure a 50MPH average speed for engine usage. That means 2,000 hrs = 100,000 miles. Any decent Diesel car motor should go 500K or 10,000 hours.
I have seen a 4B generator with 13,500 hours on it flatten the cam, after a rebuild which included a new cam and followers for $105 and a gasket set, the motor was restarted and is running right now. I know it has over 20,000 hours on it which would be the equivilant of 1,000,000 miles in a car.
The only other readily available Diesel engine that is suitable for a Jeep is the MBZ OM 617 motor. This is the motor in the 300TD's and 300SD's from the early 80's. It is a 5 cylinder 3.0L turbocharged diesel with 110-125 HP. It is not a truck or equipment motor it is a high speed car engine so it doesn't have the torque of a 4BT but is still very usable. However many Jeeps and Toyota LC's have been converted using this engine. These engines are arguably some of the most reliable internal combustion engines ever made by any one. They are readily available in junk yards and it doesn't really matter how many miles are on the thing when you get it. MY car had 160K on it when I bought it 10 years ago for $4500 and now it has 277K on it and I could sell it for more at the drop of a hat. It also will crest the Conejo Grade in Thousand Oaks CA (6-7%) at 62 MPH which is all it would ever do. IE it's got the same power it had when I got it. These engines have nitrided cranks, cams, followers, valve rotators and about every other long life engine inovation ever concieved of, included. IE built to last. It literally was a $20,000 engine, as the gas version of the same car was $9K less than the diesel cars.
These engines were also used in a variety of european trucks and equipment, my favorite being the Hagglunds BV206 Snow Mobile from Sweden. goto http://www.arctictracks.com/ and watch the videos. (well worth the time!!!) They really are the ultimate ATV. The blue one has the same engine and trans as my car! It is also Amphibious! Gotta have one some day.
This is about everything I know about sourcing a diesel for a Jeep application, there is lots more to learn, and the internet is full of cool machinery people have made for unusal uses.
Randy
We make diesels here too. Did you know that the Grand Cherokee is available as a diesel? It was supposed to be released in 2010, however our Pres. stopped it as part of the UAW/ Fiat buyout of Chrysler.
They still make that vehilce here in the US in Toledo OH however they are all shipped overseas. Same with the Wrangler, all diesel powered versions are sold elsewhere. But not here.
As far as US made Diesel engines comparable to the Cummins 4BT there are none. The Ford and Chevy diesels used in pickups are not suitable for a Jeep type application.Too Big! Toyota and Nissan both make diesel engines which are excellent but not readily available here.
Some guys over at 4BTSWAPS are using the Kubota V2203 motor which has 48 HP stock and are claiming some pretty outragous performance figures. They are turboing them and getting Freeway speeds and 40+ MPG's in Ranger pickups. One guy is doing a Jeep but I think he is going to be disappointed with the performance when the swap is done. IN a 2500lb Flat Fender I could see the motor working well. In a 4,000lb+ TJ, not so much.
Several guys over there have used VW diesels to repower Toyota pickups,and Suzuki Samurai's with excellent results. This shows matching the size and output of the engine to a suitable vehicle as being one of the primary functions of repowering. All of these VW swaps into intermediate sized vehicles have resulted in very serviceable vehicles.
The reason why 4BT's are so popular is because a few years ago Interstate Brands was pushed into receivership and had to dispose of all of it's older fleet vehicles. Many of these delivery vans had Cummins 4BT engines swapped in because the Chevy 6's died immediately and the Cummins motors gave good service and lasted. There were approximately 3000 sold with these engines, and that pile of engines have been the source for several years. i looked for along time for one before I found Dove Bid. and was made aware by a guy who was converting M37 ex military trucks to diesel power using used bread truck motors.
All of those vehicles which were sold by Dovebid.com are now gone,(I got mine in 05) but many of the engines are still floating around albeit at higher prices than before but still out there. Plus there are many new and rebuilt long blocks on Ebay for sale so these engines will continue in service until they are outlawed. CaseTractors also use this engine.
To give you an idea, I paid $1225 for my van out of Phoenix AZ. The van had 709K on it and was on it's third Cummins motor. My motor has 82K on it. The core charge for that motor at Cummins is $2000.! and a complete Cummins recon 4BT is around $6-8K. Depending on who you get it from.
Gaduckers motor only has 62K on it and like mine will last literally forever unless something out of the ordinary happens to it.
If you look at automotive engine life in hours as opposed to miles you can get another perspective on how this adds up. Figure a 50MPH average speed for engine usage. That means 2,000 hrs = 100,000 miles. Any decent Diesel car motor should go 500K or 10,000 hours.
I have seen a 4B generator with 13,500 hours on it flatten the cam, after a rebuild which included a new cam and followers for $105 and a gasket set, the motor was restarted and is running right now. I know it has over 20,000 hours on it which would be the equivilant of 1,000,000 miles in a car.
The only other readily available Diesel engine that is suitable for a Jeep is the MBZ OM 617 motor. This is the motor in the 300TD's and 300SD's from the early 80's. It is a 5 cylinder 3.0L turbocharged diesel with 110-125 HP. It is not a truck or equipment motor it is a high speed car engine so it doesn't have the torque of a 4BT but is still very usable. However many Jeeps and Toyota LC's have been converted using this engine. These engines are arguably some of the most reliable internal combustion engines ever made by any one. They are readily available in junk yards and it doesn't really matter how many miles are on the thing when you get it. MY car had 160K on it when I bought it 10 years ago for $4500 and now it has 277K on it and I could sell it for more at the drop of a hat. It also will crest the Conejo Grade in Thousand Oaks CA (6-7%) at 62 MPH which is all it would ever do. IE it's got the same power it had when I got it. These engines have nitrided cranks, cams, followers, valve rotators and about every other long life engine inovation ever concieved of, included. IE built to last. It literally was a $20,000 engine, as the gas version of the same car was $9K less than the diesel cars.
These engines were also used in a variety of european trucks and equipment, my favorite being the Hagglunds BV206 Snow Mobile from Sweden. goto http://www.arctictracks.com/ and watch the videos. (well worth the time!!!) They really are the ultimate ATV. The blue one has the same engine and trans as my car! It is also Amphibious! Gotta have one some day.
This is about everything I know about sourcing a diesel for a Jeep application, there is lots more to learn, and the internet is full of cool machinery people have made for unusal uses.
Randy
Last edited:
JeepNV
Legacy Registered User
- City
- new sharon
- State
- me
Wow, that's alot of info for a fella who doesn't know much about diesel. I like the mileage and reliability of it needless to say. The Kubota I have has been an great tractor and is about my only experience. I will be researching the 4btaa and keeping my eyes open for the future. Thankyou very much for sharing all that history and info.
I have some friends who are into tinkering and have more time than I do for tinkering. So I'll have some fun, picking their brains and sourcing. Stan
I have some friends who are into tinkering and have more time than I do for tinkering. So I'll have some fun, picking their brains and sourcing. Stan
- City
- Colorado Springs
- State
- CO
