spankrjs's Biloxi, MS '83 Scrambler
- Thread starter spankrjs
- Start date
- City
- Dillsboro
- State
- IN
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
When we grow up Randy, maybe we can be as good as Raymond.
Appreciate it, but this is a learning process for me
I am just trying to tie all these pieces together in my mind still, understand what/when they do what it is they do, then verify they work, and if not, why, which is the hard part
Our mechanic at work worked at GM and Ford dealerships in the early '80's, so he is semi familiar with some/most of this stuff, so I can bounce question/concerns/ideas off of him.
But, his standard reply, like most of the internet
"Why do you want to hook all that crap back up? When we had cars come in with problems, especially the electronic Quadrajet systems, we just pulled all that crap off and put regular q-jets/distributors back in."
Unfortunately, my quest for local knowledge comes up short; Mississippi has no emissions inspections, so most people trashed all this stuff after warranties expired
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
Appreciate it, but this is a learning process for me
I am just trying to tie all these pieces together in my mind still, understand what/when they do what it is they do, then verify they work, and if not, why, which is the hard part
Our mechanic at work worked at GM and Ford dealerships in the early '80's, so he is semi familiar with some/most of this stuff, so I can bounce question/concerns/ideas off of him.
But, his standard reply, like most of the internet
"Why do you want to hook all that crap back up? When we had cars come in with problems, especially the electronic Quadrajet systems, we just pulled all that crap off and put regular q-jets/distributors back in."
Unfortunately, my quest for local knowledge comes up short; Mississippi has no emissions inspections, so most people trashed all this stuff after warranties expired
Well, it's still interesting. Here in Arkansas we don't have emissions either, but the Scrambler hasn't been modified at all since new, and when I eventually do have issues with it I'm going to try to keep it stock if possible.
Of course, on the other hand, I guess I could go ahead and CAREFULLY remove all that stuff, and slap an MC2100 on it. Then if I ever wanted to go back to stock all the components would still be good, right?
- City
- Redmond
- State
- OR
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
I completed a little bit more emissions system restoration work this weekend.
I plan on "reactivating" the EGR system on this Scrambler. I installed a new EGR valve a few years back, but never hooked it up, because the "cross over" pipe (metal tube that connects the exhaust to intake manifold) was not installed correctly.
This metal pipe is what allows the exhaust gas to travel into the intake manifold when the EGR opens up. On my Scrambler, it was threaded into the exhaust manifold fine, but it was just kind of jammed up into the intake. If the EGR would have opened up, the way it was, the intake would have mainly just been sucking in outside air, not exhaust.
Quick picture showing where this pipe goes, bottom of intake, above the O2 sensor, outboard of the intake manifold heater:
Amazingly, with just a little bit of PB Blaster, I was able to remove the fitting from the exhaust manifold. I ordered a new pipe, thinking that my old pipe's fittings might be damaged, but they were not. Quick picture showing the old and new pipes:
The old pipe is steel, with steel fittings. The new pipe is steel, with brass fittings. I sourced the new pipe from Colins Brothers, but I believe it is available at other locations. Mine was in a Mopar parts bag.
My exhaust manifold threads were fine, but my intake had slightly boogered threads. I pulled the O2 sensor/throttle bracket out of the way, and tried to run a tap into the threads with the manifold in place. I could not re-tap it with the manifold in place. BUT, I was able to run a steel plug into the manifold, back and forth slowly like you would with a tap, and was able to repair the threads. After running the plug through the threads, I re-threaded the old fitting into place by hand, so mission accomplished. I did not want to pull the intake, that is a PIA.
So, after repairing the threads, I tried to install the new pipe as it came, with the intake/exhaust manifolds installed on the engine. The pipe would not line up right with the manifolds installed. I would "assume" it is best to install this pipe with the manifolds off the engine. I did not feel like going through all that, so I slightly "tweaked" the pipe to make it line up. This replacement pipe is pretty thick, so you can't just tweak with your bare hands. I inserted a breaker bar in one end, a long socket extension in the other end, and was able to slightly "tweak" it. After "tweaking" the pipe, it slid right in.
As you can see, the pipe is a unique shape. Even after "tweaking" the pipe, I put copper anti-seize on the fittings threads, and tightened them up very carefully. Since the intake manifold is aluminum, and you have to use a 1" wrench to tighten up the fittings, work slowly and carefully. It would be very easy to cross-thread/damage the fittings or manifolds threads. Total time to remove/install the new pipe, with the manifolds in place, 3.5 hours
With the new pipe installed, I need to check my EGR CTO switch and air cleaner mounted thermal switch, before hooking up the EGR. My EGR CTO switch is a simple two port affair. It should not allow ported vacuum to flow until the engine coolant has warmed up some. It will be easy to check this with a vacuum gauge while the engine is warming up. As for the air cleaner mounted thermal switch, since the temperature here is already staying above 60 degrees, I will have to wait until next winter to see if it functions correctly.
One last picture, showing how I ran the vacuum lines for the two air cleaner trap doors. I talked to JeeperDD and JeepAddict, this is how these lines were ran on their original Jeeps:
Of interest is the TAC trap door hose/check valve routing. I could not find much information on this.
The check valve mounts with the black end toward the vacuum source (it even says vacuum on the black end).
The check valve mounts between the Thermal Vacuum Switch and the "T" from the vacuum source.
Vacuum source goes to Thermal Vacuum Switch tube with small hole.
Vacuum flows to TAC motor from Thermal Vacuum Switch tube with large hole.
Even with the check valve installed, my TAC door is staying on the "Heat On" position. I am "thinking" my thermal vacuum switch is bad. I have a new one on the way.
I installed my new SolVac, and it functions as it should. Upon a hot restart, the vacuum portion is holding the idle high for 15 seconds, the vacuum releases, the electric portion hold the idle slightly higher for 45 seconds. I need to hook up a tachometer and adjust the speeds some, but other then that, it is functional.
That's it for now
I plan on "reactivating" the EGR system on this Scrambler. I installed a new EGR valve a few years back, but never hooked it up, because the "cross over" pipe (metal tube that connects the exhaust to intake manifold) was not installed correctly.
This metal pipe is what allows the exhaust gas to travel into the intake manifold when the EGR opens up. On my Scrambler, it was threaded into the exhaust manifold fine, but it was just kind of jammed up into the intake. If the EGR would have opened up, the way it was, the intake would have mainly just been sucking in outside air, not exhaust.
Quick picture showing where this pipe goes, bottom of intake, above the O2 sensor, outboard of the intake manifold heater:
Amazingly, with just a little bit of PB Blaster, I was able to remove the fitting from the exhaust manifold. I ordered a new pipe, thinking that my old pipe's fittings might be damaged, but they were not. Quick picture showing the old and new pipes:
The old pipe is steel, with steel fittings. The new pipe is steel, with brass fittings. I sourced the new pipe from Colins Brothers, but I believe it is available at other locations. Mine was in a Mopar parts bag.
My exhaust manifold threads were fine, but my intake had slightly boogered threads. I pulled the O2 sensor/throttle bracket out of the way, and tried to run a tap into the threads with the manifold in place. I could not re-tap it with the manifold in place. BUT, I was able to run a steel plug into the manifold, back and forth slowly like you would with a tap, and was able to repair the threads. After running the plug through the threads, I re-threaded the old fitting into place by hand, so mission accomplished. I did not want to pull the intake, that is a PIA.
So, after repairing the threads, I tried to install the new pipe as it came, with the intake/exhaust manifolds installed on the engine. The pipe would not line up right with the manifolds installed. I would "assume" it is best to install this pipe with the manifolds off the engine. I did not feel like going through all that, so I slightly "tweaked" the pipe to make it line up. This replacement pipe is pretty thick, so you can't just tweak with your bare hands. I inserted a breaker bar in one end, a long socket extension in the other end, and was able to slightly "tweak" it. After "tweaking" the pipe, it slid right in.
As you can see, the pipe is a unique shape. Even after "tweaking" the pipe, I put copper anti-seize on the fittings threads, and tightened them up very carefully. Since the intake manifold is aluminum, and you have to use a 1" wrench to tighten up the fittings, work slowly and carefully. It would be very easy to cross-thread/damage the fittings or manifolds threads. Total time to remove/install the new pipe, with the manifolds in place, 3.5 hours
With the new pipe installed, I need to check my EGR CTO switch and air cleaner mounted thermal switch, before hooking up the EGR. My EGR CTO switch is a simple two port affair. It should not allow ported vacuum to flow until the engine coolant has warmed up some. It will be easy to check this with a vacuum gauge while the engine is warming up. As for the air cleaner mounted thermal switch, since the temperature here is already staying above 60 degrees, I will have to wait until next winter to see if it functions correctly.
One last picture, showing how I ran the vacuum lines for the two air cleaner trap doors. I talked to JeeperDD and JeepAddict, this is how these lines were ran on their original Jeeps:
Of interest is the TAC trap door hose/check valve routing. I could not find much information on this.
The check valve mounts with the black end toward the vacuum source (it even says vacuum on the black end).
The check valve mounts between the Thermal Vacuum Switch and the "T" from the vacuum source.
Vacuum source goes to Thermal Vacuum Switch tube with small hole.
Vacuum flows to TAC motor from Thermal Vacuum Switch tube with large hole.
Even with the check valve installed, my TAC door is staying on the "Heat On" position. I am "thinking" my thermal vacuum switch is bad. I have a new one on the way.
I installed my new SolVac, and it functions as it should. Upon a hot restart, the vacuum portion is holding the idle high for 15 seconds, the vacuum releases, the electric portion hold the idle slightly higher for 45 seconds. I need to hook up a tachometer and adjust the speeds some, but other then that, it is functional.
That's it for now
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
If you need anything specific on how things are supposed to be hooked up/run/pointed all the OEM stuff on the Scrambler is still 100% untouched on ours. Only thing we've done is change the oil and put a new battery on it every few years.
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
Appreciate it, and actually, yes want to re-verify a few things
1) What year is your Scrambler?
2) TAC Motor Thermal Vacuum Switch, located on bottom of air cleaner inside filter area, does vacuum go to port with big or little hole?
3) EGR Thermal Vacuum Switch, located on the rear side of the air cleaner outside the filter area, does vacuum go to port with big or little hole?
Thanks in advance
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
Scrambler is an 85, and it actually hasn't been driven since around Thanksgiving, so I need to get it out for some exercise.
I will take pics this afternoon. Wife is sick so gotta check on her first, but I LOVE daylight saving's time.... Finally get time to get things done after work!
I will take pics this afternoon. Wife is sick so gotta check on her first, but I LOVE daylight saving's time.... Finally get time to get things done after work!
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
Appreciate it
Know what you mean about the time change, I can actually work on stuff outside when I get home from work now
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
Appreciate it, and actually, yes want to re-verify a few things
1) What year is your Scrambler?
2) TAC Motor Thermal Vacuum Switch, located on bottom of air cleaner inside filter area, does vacuum go to port with big or little hole?
Not sure on the big hole/ little hole. The foreward cylinder trap door goes to the part of the TAC that has a nipple sticking up. The rearward door opener goes around the air cleaner, T's off with one line going to the non-nipple connector on the TAC, and the other part of the T goes to the base of the carb on the back.
3) EGR Thermal Vacuum Switch, located on the rear side of the air cleaner outside the filter area, does vacuum go to port with big or little hole?
Thanks in advance
On the TVS, the larger port goes on the rear driver's side port on the CTO valve. I've got pics but will have to resize them to post them.
The other TVS hose goes to the CTO and splits with one leg going to the passengers rear port and the other leg going to the drivers front port.
Good grief it has been a few years since I really looked at all those vacuum hoses. What a nightmare!
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
Thanks for the help, no need to post pictures, the information you provided has helped
Your '85 has a different CTO switch, my '83 came with a simple two port CTO
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
Did some more emissions systems work last night, got a few more things figured out and functional.
My new TVS for the air cleaner TAC door showed up yesterday:
It looks different then the TVS that was in my air cleaner, but it should work. This port goes inside the air cleaner, it is the vacuum bleed off port when the door is opened:
The two ports on the bottom both have the same size orifice hole. I can not remember how I hooked it up down here, I will have to take a look and report back. It might not matter which hose goes to which port And, it was made in Canada, so I know it is an excellent part
So, I installed the TVS for the TAC door, hooked up all the vacuum lines, turned on the Scrambler, and the door still stayed shut!!!!!!!!!!! I "thought" that as long as the outside air was over a certain temperature this door would stay open. So, I disconnected the TAC door and worked on some other stuff. Later on, I hooked back up the TAC door and let the engine go through a warm up cycle. What do you know, after letting the engine run for a few minutes, the TAC door opened. So, I assume that this door shuts on a cold start, no matter the outside temperature, then slowly opens as the engine warms up. That is how it is working on my Scrambler. I am going to monitor the TAC door operation over the next few start ups. This might be how it is supposed to operate? I am going to reinstall the metal tube to the bottom of the TAC door on the air cleaner, that runs to the "heat stove" on the exhaust manifold, too; this might speed up the TAC door opening. For now, I "think" my TAC is functioning as it should
I also tested my EGR CTO valve. This valve blocks the ported vacuum signal for the EGR until the engine coolant warms up. I ran ported vacuum to the inner port of my CTO valve, hooked up a vacuum gauge on the outer port.
With a cold engine, giving it throttle, no vacuum (the gauge does not stop at zero like it should, but that's zero):
Once the engine warmed up, giving it some throttle, ported vacuum present:
So, my CTO switch is functional. But, the ported vacuum signal does not run straight from the CTO to the EGR valve. Once the CTO opens, the vacuum signal flows to another thermal vacuum switch on the air cleaner. So, say if its really cold out, just because the engine is warm, this TVS will not open if incoming air cleaner air is still too cold. I will test this TVS with a vacuum pump when the engine is cold, make sure it is not opening.
Anyway, ran the vacuum line to the EGR TVS, back to the EGR. Cold engine, no EGR. Warm engine, rev it up some, EGR is functional. So, for now, I would say that my EGR system is functional
A few more things to test/verify, but I "think" I now have all my underhood emissions systems, and feedback Carter BBD systems, operational, EXCEPT for the pulse air system. I will hook it up later on.
That's it for now
My new TVS for the air cleaner TAC door showed up yesterday:
It looks different then the TVS that was in my air cleaner, but it should work. This port goes inside the air cleaner, it is the vacuum bleed off port when the door is opened:
The two ports on the bottom both have the same size orifice hole. I can not remember how I hooked it up down here, I will have to take a look and report back. It might not matter which hose goes to which port
And, it was made in Canada, so I know it is an excellent part
So, I installed the TVS for the TAC door, hooked up all the vacuum lines, turned on the Scrambler, and the door still stayed shut!!!!!!!!!!! I "thought" that as long as the outside air was over a certain temperature this door would stay open. So, I disconnected the TAC door and worked on some other stuff. Later on, I hooked back up the TAC door and let the engine go through a warm up cycle. What do you know, after letting the engine run for a few minutes, the TAC door opened. So, I assume that this door shuts on a cold start, no matter the outside temperature, then slowly opens as the engine warms up. That is how it is working on my Scrambler. I am going to monitor the TAC door operation over the next few start ups. This might be how it is supposed to operate? I am going to reinstall the metal tube to the bottom of the TAC door on the air cleaner, that runs to the "heat stove" on the exhaust manifold, too; this might speed up the TAC door opening. For now, I "think" my TAC is functioning as it should
I also tested my EGR CTO valve. This valve blocks the ported vacuum signal for the EGR until the engine coolant warms up. I ran ported vacuum to the inner port of my CTO valve, hooked up a vacuum gauge on the outer port.
With a cold engine, giving it throttle, no vacuum (the gauge does not stop at zero like it should, but that's zero):
Once the engine warmed up, giving it some throttle, ported vacuum present:
So, my CTO switch is functional. But, the ported vacuum signal does not run straight from the CTO to the EGR valve. Once the CTO opens, the vacuum signal flows to another thermal vacuum switch on the air cleaner. So, say if its really cold out, just because the engine is warm, this TVS will not open if incoming air cleaner air is still too cold. I will test this TVS with a vacuum pump when the engine is cold, make sure it is not opening.
Anyway, ran the vacuum line to the EGR TVS, back to the EGR. Cold engine, no EGR. Warm engine, rev it up some, EGR is functional. So, for now, I would say that my EGR system is functional
A few more things to test/verify, but I "think" I now have all my underhood emissions systems, and feedback Carter BBD systems, operational, EXCEPT for the pulse air system. I will hook it up later on.
That's it for now
- City
- Biloxi
- State
- MS
Thanks for the pictures
Your '85 has more "stuff" on it then my '83. Off the top of my head, your pictures show the four (maybe 5) port CTO switch and a deceleration valve, things my '83 was not equipped with
I am trying to figure all this stuff out on my '83, to get a good knowledge base. The '84' - '86 models take the '83 base, and just add a few more gizmo's
Thanks again
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
Did some more emissions systems work last night, got a few more things figured out and functional.
My new TVS for the air cleaner TAC door showed up yesterday:
It looks different then the TVS that was in my air cleaner, but it should work. This port goes inside the air cleaner, it is the vacuum bleed off port when the door is opened:
The two ports on the bottom both have the same size orifice hole. I can not remember how I hooked it up down here, I will have to take a look and report back. It might not matter which hose goes to which port
The foreward cylinder trap door goes to the part of the TVS that has a nipple sticking up inside the air cleaner. The rearward door opener goes around the air cleaner, T's off with one line going to the non-nipple connector on the TVS, and the other part of the T goes to the base of the carb on the back.
I think you already figured that out, but the TVS on ours had same sized orifaces like your replacement. The original part was also marked "Made in Canada".
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
Thanks for the pictures
Your '85 has more "stuff" on it then my '83. Off the top of my head, your pictures show the four (maybe 5) port CTO switch and a deceleration valve, things my '83 was not equipped with
I am trying to figure all this stuff out on my '83, to get a good knowledge base. The '84' - '86 models take the '83 base, and just add a few more gizmo's
Thanks again
Are you hooking up the air tubes that go back to the exhaust system? I had forgotten they were there until I really took a close look under the hood yesterday.
Back in the 90's my cat clogged up and when the shop removed it the owner had a 5 gallon bucket full of hoses and other OEM emissions stuff. "I took all that crap off. You don't need it and it runs better without it."
- City
- Gonzales
- State
- La
I have nothing but respect for anyone who wants to restore any truck to it original condition if it's going to be a Concourse type restoration. But the emissions on these trucks reduce power and fuel mileage by as much as 25%. But I understand they still may be required in some states. Spankrjs I admire your determination.
- City
- God's Country
- State
- AR
Interestingly enough, the Scrambler gets about 15-16MPG. T176, 2.73's, and 31x10.50's.
My green CJ-7 with MC2100 (46 jets, 1.08 venturi) and Team Rush ignition, T176, 2.73's, and 31x10.50's gets about 12-13 MPG.
I think when all the stuff is working the Jeep runs great, has plenty of power, and gets good MPG. The problem is, there are so many components that there is always going to be something wrong with the system as a whole and once one thing goes wrong performance falls apart.
My tan CJ-7 has run great since I had all the crap taken off, and doesn't require constant maint like it did when all the emissions crap was in place, but when I bought in (in 1993 with 29K on it) it ran as good as it does now and was all OEM. Once that stuff starts going bad it's all over with.
With the way Raymond is doing it with all new stuff I'll bet it will be good to go for a long time.