Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

[spankrjs]

How are you oiling the pilot bushing initially?

Sent from my SM-G920V

Depends on which one:

The first pilot bushing used with the original T176/T5 came from Crown. I don't think it was a real "oilite" bushing. I soaked it in 30 weight motor oil for 3 days before installing . It lasted/worked perfect through the T176 and into the second T5. It was damaged when I pulled out the second broke T5. I think this one was broke due to catastrophic transmission failure (no teeth left on input shaft/cluster gear). BUT, the front bearing in the transmission was fine. I drove the broken transmission 200 miles at 65-70 mph.

The second bushing was a out of a NAPA clutch kit. It was a real "oilite" bushing. I did not lube it. It still looked new when I pulled out the broken T5 #3. I also drove this broken transmission 200 miles at 65-70 mph. I had to remove it for the AX15, bigger input shaft on the AX15 vs T5. It still looked new.

The bushing that came from Novak did not come with any instructions. So, I called Novak. They told me it was oilite, it did not need to be lubed. This was obviously not the case

I currently just installed a pilot bearing, needle bearing style. it came pre-lubed with some really sticky grease. i did not add any more to it, it was packed pretty good.

 

[mysunnshine]

When I oil the bushing, I put it on the end of my finger and fill the inside with oil. Then I take my other thumb and hydraulic the fluid thru the bushing until it sweats. It takes quite a bit of oil before it sweats too.

Sent from my SM-G920V

 

[spankrjs]

I keep going back to a possible alignment issue, but I almost can't buy into that for several reasons, but feel free to comment:

1) I never have shifting problems/gear clash. The clutch always works perfect, engages and disengages smoothly and immediately. If the input shaft was "rubbing" binding on the pilot bushing/bearing, I would think it would cause clutch issues.

2) I never have any pilot bushing noises. Engine running, clutch pushed in, no noise if I put the transmission in gear and cause the bushing to really come into play. Silence.

3) The two T5's that failed broke under steady load. I was driving around 75mph, no throttle changes, gear changes. Both T5's blew as if I had the cruise set. With the clutch engaged, disc is held tight to flywheel by pressure plate. This also keeps the input shaft locked into place, no wobble. I never have any transmission/clutch vibrations.

4) I never have to "fight" the transmissions into place. Once the input shaft engages the clutch disc splines, I can slide the transmission smoothly into the pilot bushing/bearing crank bore.

5) I checked the run out between the crank and bell housing bore and it was out .001. That's almost perfect. Besides this, there is clearance between the input shaft/pilot bushing. There is clearance between the bell housing dowel holes and dowels. So, just because it was almost "perfect" when I checked it, it most probably changed when I took it apart and put it back together. The dowel to dowel hole is not a press fit. It is a tight fit, but not .001 inch tolerance tight. Also, the front bearing has some tolerance for misalignment. Also, if there is a slight misalignment between the exact dead crank center and the bell housing bore, by the time you take into consideration the distance between pilot bushing/bearing to front transmission bearing, it is miniscule. We are talking thousandths of an inch, the bearings don't run that true. I could see this "crank center to bell housing bore misalignment" coming into play if we are talking 1/16 of an inch out (.0625), but people keep talking about thousandths of an inch and I am just not buying it. If you have any dust/dirt contamination where the bell housing bolts to the block, this will cause a slight misalignment that is only verifiable with a dial indicator. I know, because I observed it. Even if you were out a full 1/16 of an inch, the tolerance between the input shaft/pilot bushing and the inherent play in the front bearing would take care of it. The input shaft can run slightly out of true 90 degrees to the face of the case without issue, up to a point. I do not doubt that this "crank to bell housing bore" run out is important, but what about the other "planes" that would affect this tolerance, i.e. the block/bell housing/front of transmission case not being dead nut perfect 90 degree to each other, side to side and up and down. No one ever checks this, and it is probably more important then being a couple thousands out bore to bore center line. A piece of grit on the block/bell housing/transmission face will throw you out of perfect alignment. These are cars we are talking about, mass produced to have variations that are acceptable to a wider degree, NOT the space shuttle or a nuclear reactor

6) The bell housing bore is not machined "perfect" from the factory. I had to polish the bore with emery cloth to bolt it to the transmission adapter. It is that tight of a fit on the Novak adapter. So, with the bell housing bolted securely to the face of the transmission, and we can "assume" that the input shaft is pretty damn close to being almost 100% perfectly centered in the bell housing bore, I then slide the assembly on to the dowel pins that are in the block. The dowel pins are a tight fit, but not a "machinist" fit. Everything slides together and bolts up fine. It slides together perfectly. I don't feel the input shaft hitting the pilot bushing/bearing. Everything feels good.

7) I am using a factory/Tremec bell housing. I would think it would have been checked at the manufacturing plant to be acceptable to be used. I mostly here about these "misalignment" issues when running aftermarket scatter shields/bell housings. Not often with factory components. That being said, it is statistically possible I could have a bell housing that was manufactured and fell outside the standard deviation for acceptabllity. That is a mathematical possibility. The statistical probability that I have used THREE different bell housings that fell outside the standard deviation for acceptability, that is almost impossible. It could happen, but I would have to be the unluckiest person in the world.

8) Let's say that I am slightly out of perfect alignment. Wouldn't I experience shifting issues/gear clash? I don't. Is that because I am staying mostly under 3,000 RPM and pushing less then 200 HP, as opposed to a 800 HP drag car that is being shifted at 8,000 RPM?? I can see slight alignment issues being multiplied into catastrophic gear train failures at these abusive instances, but I am basically driving a glorified tractor.

Please feel free to comment or correct me. I am getting tired of pulling transmissions out of this Scrambler

 

[spankrjs]

When I oil the bushing, I put it on the end of my finger and fill the inside with oil. Then I take my other thumb and hydraulic the fluid thru the bushing until it sweats. It takes quite a bit of oil before it sweats too.


Sent from my SM-G920V

I can tell by looking at your picture that you have a "true" oilite bushing. The bushing Novak sent me was not porous at all. It was perfectly smooth, like a glass slick surface, no pores.

The NAPA bushing that came from the clutch kit looked exactly like the one above. It came "lubed", you could feel/smell the oil inside of it. I bought the clutch kit back in 2007, not sure how their new clutch kits bushings are now

Thank you for the tip on oiling the bushing, I will definitely do this on future oilite bushings

Does your shop make bushing in house? I need to have some "custom" bushings made for my AX15 to 258 crank bushing, it is not an off the shelf part, and I don't think I trust buying another Novak/auto parts store bushings.

I am currently running a pilot bearing. I might pull the transmission out before South Dakota and see how the bearing looks.

 

[mysunnshine]

Very rarely do we ever need to machine a bushing. Most always we can find a replacement because most dimensions are common.

Sent from my SM-G920V

 

[spankrjs]

Very rarely do we ever need to machine a bushing. Most always we can find a replacement because most dimensions are common.

Sent from my SM-G920V

Just wondering if you had a name brand/manufacturer/source for real Oilite bushings. I see National and Dorman brands available, but not 100% if they are quality or not?

The Novak supplied bushing seems to be very low quality, high in iron content, stuck to the magnet like a piece of steel

 

[spankrjs]

Back to exhaust manifold drama. I used up the last of my silver Rustoleum High Temp paint on my new/old manifold. Not my favorite color, but this paint has been holding up great on the Tan Scrambler's 350 exhaust manifolds. Quick picture of my redneck paint stand:

Used the steam cleaner to blast most of the crap off of it. But, had to use a torch to "burn off/out" some old oil contamination. Once I get my new intake/exhaust gaskets, I can put my red Scrambler back together.

I wasn't exaggerating about the POS replacement manifold being cracked in half

 

[spankrjs]

I got everything disassembled/ready for re-installation Friday night. Spent Saturday wheeling in the tan Scrambler, playing JK Rubicon recovery:

Got the Red Scrambler reassembled Sunday:

So much fun trying to get the torque wrench on those four bottom bolts on the inline six

Just need to pull the battery out of the tan Scrambler and put it back in the red Scrambler, then more road tests.

That's it for now

 

[spankrjs]

Exhaust leak noise is gone , BUT the engine still has a knock/tick consistent with RPM


Sounds a bit "deeper" then valve train clatter, but not a rod knocking


I am going to pull the belts off this afternoon to eliminate accessory noise, but I'm 99% sure that's not the cause of the noise.
Next, pull the valve cover off, maybe tighten the rockers 1/2 a turn, see if it gets quiet.

But, me and the mechanic at work, think its deeper, maybe a piston skirt or wrist pin issue

I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge that shows around 2psi of pressure at idle, 55-60psi on cold start up, and never drops below 25psi off idle, for what that's worth. The engine still drives fine, good power, no oil burning. The low oil pressure at idle is concerning, but that could be a gauge issue.

I had dropped the oil pan/valve cover about 28,000 miles ago, everything "looked fine/clean", but that doesn't really tell the tale.


So, most probably a rebuild of this engine or a long block. This is the only component of the Jeep that was not rebuilt/replaced when I rebuilt the Scrambler. But, I don't think I have time to perform an engine swap/break in a new engine before South Dakota

I guess its a good thing my tan Scrambler has a new engine

Sucks

 

[mysunnshine]

2psi is never good-

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[spankrjs]

2psi is never good-

Sent from my SM-G920V

Yes, but not sure how accurate this gauge is on the low end

If it only has 2psi at idle, then definitely time to do something. But, it has been showing this low at idle for the last 30k miles, so not sure how accurate the gauge is

I figure I will pop the valve cover and observe the rocker arms, see if anything looks wonky. I can drop the oil pan easy enough and see if a piston skirt is down there

The ticking/knocking at idle is not too loud, but once you get over 1,300 RPM, it is very noticeable

 

[spankrjs]

I did some more diagnosis last night. With both belts removed, the sound is still there, kind of figured I wouldn't get that lucky

Using a piece of rubber heater hose as a "redneck stethoscope", I ran the hose all over the engine. I put a ear plug in my other ear to block out background noise. This is what I found:

Valve cover - quiet, no unusual noises
Cylinder head - checked around/between all the spark plugs, no unusual noises
Block - from cylinder head down to oil pan, 1-4 completely quiet. 5 and 6 I can hear the noise, down low by crank
Oil Pan - quiet, except at the sump, you could hear the oil pump pick up sucking oil

I got below the engine, laying on the ground, the loudest source of noise comes from the bell housing. With the hose touching the bottom part of the bell housing, directly below the flywheel, this is where the noise is loudest. Moving backwards, to below the clutch, silent. The transmission is silent, too.

With the engine running, I removed the dust cover form the front of the bell housing. Putting the hose right at the oil pan/RMS/crank flange/flywheel, this seems to be the source of the noise. You can hear this noise on the bottom front of the aluminum bell housing more then on the engine block. Maybe because aluminum transmits the sound more then cast. Like I mentioned above, I can hear the noise on the block at #6, and less so on #5.

When I last pulled the transmission, the flywheel was tight, no cracks visible. I do not have any strange sounds at start up/shut down, which would be typical for a loose flywheel??? Clutch engagement/disengagement does not change the noise. I did not check the flywheel with a dial indicator, but when I pushed/pulled on the flywheel, I could not feel any play. I do not think I have a loose/cracked flywheel, and the thrust bearing portion of the main bearings I would assume to be fine With the dust cover removed, engine running, the flywheel appears to be running true/straight. Looking at the gap between the ring gear teeth/inside bottom of bell housing with the engine spinning, the gap remains consistent, no wobble or any other abnormality.

The harmonic balancer on the front of the crank looks to be fine, no noise at the front of the engine, or timing chain area.

The noise I am hearing is more of a "tick" then a "knock". I have heard a rod "knocking", right before it went through the block, the sound I have is definitely not that. People describe "piston skirt slap noise" like a double tap. My sound is a single tick, consistent with RPM. The "tick" does get louder as RPM increases. The "tick" is audible at idle and all RPM ranges. I have noticed a vibration coming from the engine that was not there before. When driving the Scrambler, you can't feel the vibration. But, with it sitting in the yard, holding a steady 1,500 RPM, you can feel a slight vibration.

The engine runs fine and has good power. It does not use any oil. It has been a couple thousand miles since the last oil change, the oil still looks new. Besides the "tick: sound, no other issues or strange sounds.

So, not sure what is causing the "tick"/vibration, but I would assume it is down low in the engine, either main bearings or connecting rod bearings, or loose rod bolts

Probably no way of knowing without pulling the engine to pieces. I won't have time for that between the South Dakota trip coming up soon, and Sand Blast at the end of July. I might not get back to this one until the fall. Whatever is making the noise, i don't think it will be cheap.

Too bad I can't get a new 258 long block for $1,700, like I did with the GM 350 in the tan Scrambler

Any suggestions for further diagnostic testing, thoughts or opinions, will be appreciated

 

[Bad Karma]

I'll give you $1000 CDN for the whole Jeep, just to take it off your hands. I'm good like that.
or
LS swap?

but seriously...
What about pulling the trans and running the engine without it? Cheaper than pulling apart and rebuilding the engine and that way you eliminate the transmission as a possibility.

 

[spankrjs]

I'll give you $1000 CDN for the whole Jeep, just to take it off your hands. I'm good like that.
or
LS swap?

but seriously...
What about pulling the trans and running the engine without it? Cheaper than pulling apart and rebuilding the engine and that way you eliminate the transmission as a possibility.

$1000 CDN is like $20 US, SOLD

Before I pull the engine, I think I will pull the transmission back out, put on another bell housing, and run it. Maybe the sound I am hearing is the pilot bearing

It just seems really odd that I blew three T5's, and wasted a few pilot bushings ???? The crank center to bell housing center are dead on, so IDK Maybe the crank is loose, that would be weird?????? Slight RMS leak, slight front timing chain cover leak, maybe the crank is "walking" under load??????

I will definitely run it without the transmission/clutch installed, see what I find. Maybe there has been some kind of strange crank/bottom end issue the whole time I have had the Jeep I put close to 30,000 miles on this engine with no problems, except the blown transmissions

LS swap for me would mean a whole new power train. If the skinny pedal has it, I will use it, and I don't think the rest of the power train would take it

IF it is an engine issue, I will most probably rebuild this engine if possible, or swap in another 258. I am happy with the power/MPG of my current set up, except at the sand dunes, but that has more to do with the 4:1 Dana 300

 

[cdvcj8]

Try Rotella to see it it helps?

 

[spankrjs]

Try Rotella to see it it helps?

Well, before the last oil change it always ran Quakerstate, the NAPA 10w30 is when the noise started

I might drain the oil and cut the oil filter open to see if there is any metal, it will only cost me about $20 to change the oil, can't hurt anything, but probably wont help

 

[mysunnshine]

I'd put the money tward a good oil gauge to verify that low pressure instead-

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[spankrjs]

I'd put the money tward a good oil gauge to verify that low pressure instead-

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Can't a guy have some faith in a "miracle", a "stay of execution" so to speak

Y'all do mail order rebuilds

 

[mysunnshine]

No miracles if it's knocking already with low oil pressure. That ship has sailed already.


I do have a low mile 4.8L and a 6l80E that would work good in there-

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[tower210]

No miracles if it's knocking already with low oil pressure. That ship has sailed already.


I do have a low mile 4.8L and a 6l80E that would work good in there-

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Wired up and ready to drop in? I'll give $1000 CDN!!!