Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

[spankrjs]

That would probably explain the slightly rough/slightly up/down idle for 20 seconds or so upon initial start up. The last time I checked the pressure after it sat (around a year and a half ago) it was a hair lower then it should have been, maybe around 35 pounds or so, I cant remember

I need to check it again, then nail down this issue. Like you, I think it is either a fuel pressure issue or maybe even an IAC issue

I don't think I have any leaking injectors, the engine fires right up, no black puff, does not smell rich. I have the "two line system", with the fuel pressure regulator on the rail. Maybe the diaphragm is leaking a bit

I checked the fuel pressure this weekend, seemed perfect

1) After sitting for two weeks without starting, put the gauge on the fuel rail, turned the key on, held 40psi for 5 minutes, no bleed down.

2) Started the Scrambler up, fuel pressure stayed around 35psi while idling for 5 minutes.

3) Disconnected vacuum line from FPR, pressure shot up to 43psi.

I am pretty sure my fuel system is okie dokie, might be a IAC or slight vacuum leak somewhere

 

[spankrjs]

My poor Red Scrambler, I haven't really drove it much since the National Event earlier this summer But, I plan on taking it on a road/trail trip either in October to Alabama, or to Hot Springs in November.

It has had an annoying vibration while driving over 55mph, even after rebalancing the tires. I decided to check the shocks, Rubicon Express Mototubes with about 25,000 miles on them, and sure enough, the passenger side rear shock is completely blown out. When I pulled it off, the shaft just slid down

I thought about just replacing the one shock, and I still might, but with that many miles, might be time for four new shocks. But, the other three are still pretty tight. So, I might try to source one RE Monotube shock, preferably used, to match the other three, and keep as a spare set.

I put some Bilsteins on my LJ awhile back, and I am happy with them, so I will probably put a set of 5100's on this red Jeep, too

Anyway, after reading various threads on what shocks to use with the RE 4.5" lift, this is what I came up with:

All four of the original Rubicon Express shocks that came with my kit are the same length: roughly 15.5" compressed, 24" extended.

On the Scrambler, mounting eye to eye lengths, with Jeep at rest:

Front: 19" - gives 3.5" up travel, 5" down travel
Rear: 19.5" - gives 4" up travel, 4.5" down travel

So, I think I am going to go with four new Bilstein 5100 series 33-186542 shocks.

I am also going to lower the front bump stops down 2.5", and the rear bump stops down 2" to prevent bottoming the shocks out. Some 23" limiting straps wouldn't hurt, either

My BFG Mud Terrains still have a funny wear pattern, which I am sure is not contributing to vibration free highway driving. I need to get all four tires "trued". I found a shop in New Orleans that can true tires, the closest shop I could find locally to me. But, there machine was broken when I called Hopefully they get it fixed soonas, I would really like to shave these tires back to roundness

That's it for now

 

[spankrjs]

I installed the Bilstein shocks last night and went for a test drive, WOW, huge difference, major improvement

Replacing the one blown rear shock probably made the biggest difference, but the Scrambler drives great again. No more body roll or "mushy" feelings, drive perfect. I can highly recommend these shocks

Quick picture showing one new shock on top of the old shocks, the blown RE Monotube is on the left:

The Bilsteins I purchased are an exact replacement for the Monotube shocks that came with my RE lift. Maybe the valving is slightly different, not sure, its about impossible to find any technical spec's on the RE shocks.

The best thing - Simply replacing the shocks got rid of about 95% of my high speed tire /wheel vibration. So, I now really enjoy driving this one again

I still want to get the tires "trued", though.

Anyway, that's it for now

 

[Bad Karma]

I have Bilsteins on both the Scrambler and the LJ. Best shocks ever. Only thing I dont like about them is the finish on the ones on my LJ. Salt is not their friends. Scrambler ones still look new, LJ ones look like a$$. But they ride awesome!!

 

[spankrjs]

I have Bilsteins on both the Scrambler and the LJ. Best shocks ever. Only thing I dont like about them is the finish on the ones on my LJ. Salt is not their friends. Scrambler ones still look new, LJ ones look like a$$. But they ride awesome!!

Sounds like me

I put some 5100 series Bilsteins on my stock LJ, loved them, so put the 5125's on the Scrambler, love them

Only difference, no salt for me

 

[wm69]

Sounds like me

I put some 5100 series Bilsteins on my stock LJ, loved them, so put the 5125's on the Scrambler, love them

Only difference, no salt for me

I guess I'm a little too slow to figure out the Bilstein website as to application. Looks like stock would be 33-185606, and you used 33-186542 with a 4.5 lift. For my 2.5" lift one site said for the front I could use a 33-230313 but also listed a 33-233970, and doesn't list anything for the rear. You use the same shock on all 4 corners on yours?

 

[spankrjs]

I guess I'm a little too slow to figure out the Bilstein website as to application. Looks like stock would be 33-185606, and you used 33-186542 with a 4.5 lift. For my 2.5" lift one site said for the front I could use a 33-230313 but also listed a 33-233970, and doesn't list anything for the rear. You use the same shock on all 4 corners on yours?

Yes, (x4) of the same shock. My RE lift came with four of the same shocks, and surprisingly, it works well. I measured the mounting distance from top shock hook up to bottom shock hook up, and these work the best for me.

NOTE - I am using 5125 Series, you don't look these up by vehicle, you have to measure what you have to see what will work

These shocks, and the previous RE Monotubes, have 8" of total travel. I am using the stock shock mounting points, and getting close to 4" of up/ 4"down travel at each corner, so works out pretty good.

You could run a taller front tower/and use a lower attaching point at the front and use a longer front shock, but the tires would munch stock fenders

The rear is limited by the bed floor, don't want to cut the bed to run longer rear shocks. At the rear, with my current up-travel, the tires rub sheet metal, so unless I cut, that's all I can get

But, this thing has more then adequate suspension flex

I need to lower the stock bump stops, something the RE kit doesn't mention or include, a couple of inches in both the front and back. As it sits now, the shocks could act as bump stops, which isn't good

 

[scramble1983]

Spankrjs,
Knowing what you know now would you have gone with the Bilsteins from the beginning ? I have an original set of the Rubicon's that are brand-new and I'm wondering whether I should go with the Bilsteins to begin with .....also I have a 4 1/2 inch lift with the 1 inch body lift will the shocks work with that application as well? I should stop being lazy and measure ...

 

[spankrjs]

Spankrjs,
Knowing what you know now would you have gone with the Bilsteins from the beginning ? I have an original set of the Rubicon's that are brand


Not necessarily. Three of my four RE shocks are still good, one blew out. I might have broke it, no telling. But, the Bilsteins do ride a bit better Now, do they ride $300 better, since your other shocks are still new, hard to say

I am running the RE 4.5" lift, 1" BL, these shocks should work for you, unless you are running the '81 style short front shock towers

 

[scramble1983]

Thanks for the advice

 

[spankrjs]

Thanks for the advice

No problem

 

[spankrjs]

Time for an update. I have been hearing a ticking sound coming from the bell housing/transmission area the last few months. The sound appears to be coming from the Center Force Stage 2 clutch. It's not a throw out bearing/pilot bushing/transmission noise, definitely coming from the clutch. Everything still works fine - no slipping/grabbing/chattering, but something is making a noise. I am "thinking" either a broke spring in the disc or one of the fingers on the pressure plate went wonky some how

So, I am pulling the transmission back out of this Scrambler for the I think 7th time this weekend to diagnose the problem/replace the clutch Good thing is, with so much practice, in less then 2 hours it is ready to be pulled I want to get this fixed before the long ride to South Dakota toward the end of June. I have a ride next weekend in Louisana, so if I fix it this weekend I can do a "pre-National" shake down run next weekend.

A familiar site in my garage, Red Scrambler transmission removal:

I will update with my findings next week, that's it for now

 

[spankrjs]

I was able to get the transmission/transfer case pulled out and reinstalled this weekend. I did not find a problem with the clutch, but I did find a problem.

Before I get too in depth with what I found, a few quick pictures of my transmission jack AX15 mounting plate that I made. It worked perfect, and held the transmission securely.

I built the mounting plate out of wood which bolts to the threaded holes in the bottom of the transmission case.

The wood plate then bolts to the transmission jacks steel plate. I also used a strap, but not necessary.

This set up worked perfectly. Even though it bolts the transmission to the jack toward the rear of the transmission case, it balances out perfect. That Dana 300 on the back weighs more then the front of the transmission/bell housing.

Upon re-installation, I loosened the transmission to wood plate bolts some, to allow for a little "wiggle room" to make installation really easy.


I "thought/assumed" the "ticking" sound I was hearing, that was coming from the bell housing area, was originating with the clutch. Maybe it was, I don't have that "ticking" sound anymore, but I never did find a problem with the clutch assembly. The Centerforce clutch has approximately 28,000 miles on it. I never had any complaints with it, except the ticking sound that developed approximately 3,000 miles after the AX15 install. The clutch is most probably still fine.

For a recap, I am running a Novak AX15, 258, T176 bell housing that bolts to an adapter plate on the front of the transmission. All stock clutch linkage, Centerforce Stage 2 PP and Disc. Novak supplied pilot bushing.

The clutch disc looked fine, the center hub, where my finger is, was loose, but I believe that they are made to move a little:

I really thought I was going to find a problem with the Centerforce weights, but they were all intact, no damage evident. The weights do fit loose on the metal retaining ring, so maybe the "ticking" sound I was hearing was coming from the pressure plate???

This is the only problem I found, the Novak supplied pilot bushing was turning to dust, with less then 5,000 miles on it!!!!

If you look close, you can see black dust/debris in the cavity behind the pilot bushing. When Novak sent me this bushing, they told me that it was an "Oilite" bushing, that no lubricant was needed. Well, I don't think this was the case. The bushing was bone dry, and upon removal, which destroyed it, it was more silver in color then bronze, leading me to believe it has a high iron content, and was not self lubricating.

The good news, the input shaft is fine, and the front bearing in the transmission seems fine, too. No real play evident in the input shaft. If you look real close at the above picture, you will see a raised ridge toward the back of the pilot bushing. This is where the tapered end of the input shaft rode. It is pretty concentric, and wear to the bushing is also concentric. This leads me to believe that everything is spinning close to "true". Before I installed this transmission, I checked the crank to bell housing center bore with a dial indicator to check the run out. It was well within spec, so I am fairly confident this damage was not caused by an alignment issue ?????????

Of course, I did not discover the damaged pilot bushing until Saturday morning, on a holiday weekend. No parts stores around me had a pilot bushing that would work. Well, sinse I have had two crappy supposedly "oilite" bushings fail in this Scrambler, I figured what the hell,and tried this little number:

This is a needle roller bearing, surrounded by a spacer. It fits in the outer ridge of the crank. This particular unit works with 4.0/AX15 equipped Wranglers. It was in stock at Napa, so I am going to try it. I would have preferred a real "Oilite" bushing, but I was unable to locate one. One saving grace: This bearing rides in the outer portion of the the crank, closer to the splines of the input shaft. The bushings fit in the inner crank cavity, toward the end of the input shaft. "IF" this bearing fails, maybe it wont tear up the end of the input shaft where the bushing rides. Hopefully it does not fail!!!!!

Before installing this pilot bearing, I test fit it to the input shaft. It fit really well, not too tight and not too loose. My input shaft has an OD of .75, the ID of this bearing is advertised at being .763. That would appear to be a "loose" fit, but it seems to fit fine. This bearing ID is what Jeep used with .75 OD input shafts, so fingers crossed it will be good to go. According to National Bearing, a pilot BUSHING should have an OD .002-.005 larger then the OD of the corresponding shaft. I could not find a recommended tolerance for pilot BEARINGS. But, Jeep used this bearing with .75 OD input shafts, and Novak said I should be fine, so fingers crossed. Advance Adapters also recommends this pilot bearing.

Installation was simple using a seal driving tool as a driver:

I was really concerned about this, looking at the bushing/bearing from the side, it does stick out from the crank, but not past the flywheel bolts:

I thought I was going to be out of luck. I was worried that the pilot bearing assembly was sticking out toward the rear too much, and that it would foul on the input shaft splines. I should have made some careful measurements before hand, but I didn't. Figured what the hell, bolted in a NAPA replacement clutch, and a new throw out bearing. More on the TO in a bit. Went to slide the bell housing/transmission/Dana 300 assembly back into place, with much apprehension, but it slid right in. I was able to gently push it all the way in, did not have to fight it or pull it in with bolts.

I then reassembled the rest of the drive line/Scrambler. As for the TO bearing, the one that came with the kit seemed really crappy. So, I bought a new SKF HD TO bearing and installed it. I have not had any problems with the "seem to be crappier TO bearings", but I decided to install a "better" TO bearing.

Anyway, once the Scrambler was reassembled, I fired it up. The clutch works fine, shifts through all the gears, no vibrations. Seems really good. UNTIL you push in the clutch pedal!!!!!!!!!!!!! Right when the TO bearing contacts the PP fingers, I can here a distinct "whirring" sound. No sound present idling with transmission in neutral, or idling in gear with the transfer case in neutral. I only hear the sound right when the TO bearing hits the PP fingers. Nice.

The SKF TO bearing turned fine by hand before installation, but it did seem to have more internal resistance then the crappier TO bearings. I am "hoping" that maybe the SKF bearing was an older unit, sat on the shelf for awhile, maybe the grease just needs to get hot a few times to become more fluid. That's what I am hoping.

One last picture of the "guilty" party:

Let's see:

Original T176 rebuilt/reinstalled upon original Scrambler rebuild
Rebuilt T176 pulled and replaced with T5 #1
T5#1 obtained cluster gear bearing surface issue, replaced with T5 #2
T5 #2 blew, repalced with T5 #3
T5 #3 blew, reinstalled original/rebuilt T176
Pulled T176 out to install AX15
Pulled AX15 out to investigate clutch issues, reinstalled AX 15

I could of saved a bunch of time/money keeping the T176/driving slower.

Anyway, I am going to drive the Scrambler around some and see if the "assumed to be TO bearing noise" goes away with a little driving. If not, good thing I have my "AX15 wood plate" thing.

 

[spankrjs]

Did some more diagnostic work last night:

Engine running, clutch pedal down, noise present with transmission in gear and neutral, so the new throwout bearing is singing to me The new pilot bearing seems to be fine

The throw out bearing sound is not "bad", no vibration, it just makes a "whirring sound" when it is spinning with the pressure plate. I drove the Scrambler about 50 miles last night, around town and 75 on the interstate. Everything works fine, so I am just going to live with the throw out bearing sound for now. It did quiet down some with use, so maybe it will be OK If not, I will throw a spare in the tool box

I still have my "ticking" noise while driving under load. This was the original reason for pulling the transmission. Anyway, the more I listen to it, the more I am sure it is just an exhaust leak somewhere. I kind of confirmed this when I jumped a curb, hard, and the noise got louder So, just need to check the exhaust system for leaks, and I am that has been the cause of my "ticking" sound the entire time

I am still glad I pulled the transmission, that destroyed pilot bushing would have definitely caused some more serious issues, like transmission front bearing, needle bearing, and more if left unchecked

The inexpensive NAPA clutch is working fine. It feels a bit "easier/softer" then the Centerforce Stage 2 it replaced. I might be hard on transmissions, but not on clutches, so hopefully this NAPA clutch will last. With my luck, I am sure I will be pulling the transmission out before the clutch wears out

 

[mysunnshine]

The next time you have it out, you should use a dial indicator to see how far off the crankshaft centerline is from the bellhousing center.

Sent from my SM-G920V

 

[spankrjs]

The next time you have it out, you should use a dial indicator to see how far off the crankshaft centerline is from the bellhousing center.

Sent from my SM-G920V

I checked it back in 2014 when I installed the transmission, post #1220

https://www.cj-8.com/forum/showthre...e-Road-Trip-UPDATE-BODY-ON-FRAME-AGAIN/page82

I was showing only " one thousand" out, top to bottom, side to side, well within spec, I would think

I should have checked it this time, just to see if anything changed. I will check it next time, which hopefully wont be soon

One thing I was thinking about: When I checked the run out, it was by turning the crank over by hand. I wonder it there is a "run out" issue that is only observable with the engine running

Maybe wore out crank bearings??? The engine runs fine and smooth, good oil pressure. The engine was the only component I did not rebuild/replace when I rebuilt the rest of the Scrambler. I would have thought a serious engine issue would have shown itself in the last 28,000 miles Maybe it has been trying to tell me, with two destroyed pilot bushings??????? But, the first wasted bushing showed up after driving a severely destroyed T5 back home at 65-70mph for 200 miles. This destroyed bushing looks more like a lack of lubricant failure?????

Please let me know your thoughts. I can send you a piece of the latest destroyed bushing to analyze. I will check it with a magnet and see if it sticks

 

[Bad Karma]

your posts are always informative and entertaining at the same time. I should pull the trans out of my Scrambler and check everything, but I think the NV4500 is too heavy for your fancy wood jack thingy.

 

[spankrjs]

your posts are always informative and entertaining at the same time. I should pull the trans out of my Scrambler and check everything, but I think the NV4500 is too heavy for your fancy wood jack thingy.

The jack will pick up the whole Scrambler, the wood adapter block, probably not

I will have some more "entertainment" below

Really disappointed in Novak's "oilite" bushing, glad I pulled the transmission or I would have eventually damaged the transmission front bearing, and maybe more. Even an NV4500 wont last with a wasted pilot bushing/bearing

 

[spankrjs]

Well, once I got under the Scrambler last night to look for the exhaust leak, only took about 5 seconds to find it (to the right and above the bolt head):

This is yet another POS aftermarket replacement part that sucks ballz. Only 28k and it is cracked in 1/2. I can't even begin to count how many Omix/Crown/Autozone other made in China crap has broken or failed in short order. No more of that $hit for me. Original used parts for now on Well, even the GD made in USA brand new TO bearing makes noise, so I guess almost everything made now just ain't worth a fu-k I don't mind fixing things, but having to replace "new" parts really sucks

Luckily, I have a good/used original manifold. Just need to finish drilling out one broken stud at the flange:

Plan on steam cleaning, wire wheeling, then painting the manifold. It is dead straight, no cracks, so should be good to go. My luck, it will break two weeks from now


But, at least I am pretty sure I now know where my "ticking" sound was coming from. This might also be the cause of a slight decrease in MPG and slightly rough idle at warm up, too. That big crack can't be good for accurate O2 sensor operation

 

[mysunnshine]

How are you oiling the pilot bushing initially?

Sent from my SM-G920V