Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
New sending unit installed, the temperature gauge is working correctly again.

Hard to read, but the scanner is showing 206 and 210, speedometer gauge looks good to me:

20200706_165608.jpg

20200706_170616.jpg

The fuel gauge is still acting up. 2 hours after shutting the engine down, the fuel gauge has not dropped back to "E":

20200706_170810.jpg

Glad the temperature gauge is good to go again :thumbsup:

As for the fuel gauge, I may see about getting it repaired, if possible? :shrug: That would definitely be outside my range of expertise, would have to find someone who repairs gauges................
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
My next "misadventure", and one I probably should have skipped, sleeving door hinge brackets.

I purchased two used/good shape lower door hinge brackets, some bushings, and some shaft collars:

20200706_171752.jpg

My "notes":

20200706_172020.jpg

Basically, the holes in the brackets are close to 7/16". I want to put in bushings that have a 3/8" ID and a 1/2" OD. In hind sight, I should have left these brackets alone, they were in great shape.

The bushings are a little short in length, but I do not see that as being a major issue:

20200706_172025.jpg

Instead of using a drill press, I simply clamped the bracket to the front bumper, used a hand drill to bore out the bracket. The first one went OK, true "Redneck Ray" machine shop operation:

20200706_173003.jpg

Amazingly, the first bracket drilled out well. The biggest issue with this: these are not existing true "round holes". The brackets are more like a "C" shaped hole, with an almost open end where they roll back against the plate. The drill wants to follow the path of least resistance, toward the "thinner" portion of the hole. A drill press might help, but I think some other type of "boring" rig would be better served here.

20200706_173242.jpg

20200706_173246.jpg

As you can see in the above pictures, the hole is slightly off center, BUT the new bored hole is following the center of the original hole which is not centered. Also, I am going from 7/16" ID to 1/2" ID, so boring it out does remove some meat.

The bushing tapped in with a hammer, good snug fit:

20200706_173336.jpg

20200706_173339.jpg

20200706_173347.jpg

20200706_173428.jpg

In the above pictures, you can clearly see the the bushing is not centered. The bottom picture, you can see how thin the metal on the bracket is on one side from the bore being off centered.

Should have stopped here.
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
After drilling the first bracket, an interesting find. It looked like the original brackets had some type of sleeve/bushing. This was found on the ground after drilling out the first bracket:

20200706_173521.jpg

20200706_173529.jpg

20200706_173534.jpg

Like I said, should have stopped on the first bracket. I next attempted to drill out the driver side bracket, the one I really needed, and it unfolded!!!

20200706_174040.jpg

20200706_174512.jpg

20200706_174520.jpg

Tried to "repair" it, no go:

20200706_175103.jpg

In hind sight, I got "greedy". I tried to bore out to 1/2" in one go. I should have attempted the bore in multiple stages, i.e. 7/16", 15/32", 31/64".

The last 1/8", the 1/2" bit hit a hard spot and unfolded the round part of the bracket.

I "might" be able to repair it, heat it up with a torch, use a 1/2" dowel to reshape the round part. Maybe. Doubtful. It is pretty much ruined.
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
So, not real happy with the first bore job on the passenger bracket, and ruined the driver side bracket.

Pulled the door off the passenger side, good news. Neither hinge pin hole is wore out on this side, so no need for sleeves on the passenger side.

Lower bracket, note paint damage :-(

20200706_175818.jpg

Upper bracket:

20200706_175824.jpg

In the above two pictures, OEM brackets, you can clearly see the "opening/split" in the "C" shaped holes.

Anyway, realigned the hinge brackets:

20200706_180157.jpg

This side is the same as the driver side, just not as bad. The doors sit too low in the body opening, no matter how you adjust the hinges. I had a few washers under each door hinge to space the door up in the opening. I replaced the thinner washers with the 3/8" shaft collars. This necessitated readjusting the entire door/strike post.

The shaft collars use a set screw to pin them to the door hinge posts. So, my spacers stay on the door posts now. Before, I would have to stack washers on the hinge brackets, then try to get both door pins through the two washer stacks and into the body brackets, without knocking spacers all over the ground. This is a big improvement, it is simple to remove/reinstall the doors.

As for why/how these doors do not fit properly to the body without spacers, who knows? All I know, both doors fit/operate perfect with spacers. They will NOT work without them. I am finished trying to figure out why, just going to embrace my inner "Redneck Ray", function before form.

The shaft collars on the door pins:

20200706_191903.jpg

20200706_191912.jpg

The entire door in the opening:

20200706_191320.jpg

The door fits the opening almost perfect. I could tweek the adjustment some more if I really wanted to, but I am happy with it. Doors shut and latch easy, remove/reinstall easy.

I could raise the back edge up a hair:

20200706_191331.jpg

But, it is tight to the hard top here:

20200706_191337.jpg

20200706_191343.jpg

The bottom edge gap is tight, but no real way to raise it, without fouling on the hard top. It also stick out a hair at the bottom/back lower corner.

The joys of adjusting doors :crazy:

This body is tweaked, no doubt, from all the years/miles/off road fun. This door fits, seals, opens/shuts/latches, and removes/re-installs fine. I am not going to pull my hair out anymore trying to get all the gaps "equal". Sometimes it is better to just let "good enough" prevail.

More importantly, I need to fix the driver side, those hinge bracket holes are quite loose.
 

Randyzzz

Blown Budget
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
SOA Member
City
Redmond
State
OR
I love a good mystery. Is it possible that the windshield hinge brackets are short in the hinge area?

You could bring the bottom bracket up to eliminate the spacer if you wanted the bottom hinges to look aligned.
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
I love a good mystery. Is it possible that the windshield hinge brackets are short in the hinge area?

You could bring the bottom bracket up to eliminate the spacer if you wanted the bottom hinges to look aligned.
Could be. The WS hinges are actually sitting higher then the cowl, so that should be helping the issue :crazy:
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
"Repaired" the driver side door hing brackets net.

This time, I used quite a few bits to get to 1/2":

20200707_144617.jpg

'Redneck Ray" clamp job:

20200707_144632.jpg

This bracket drilled out OK, but, I almost think it is removing just a little material and more so opening up the "C":

20200707_144643.jpg

20200707_144801.jpg

20200707_144808.jpg

20200707_144812.jpg

Bushing went in easy enough:

20200707_144853.jpg

20200707_144859.jpg

It will work, but pretty "butch". I am not happy with this at all. I ordered some powder coated black stainless lower hinge brackets. Will paint them red and swap them on in the future.

And bolted on. One thing I forgot to do when I took it apart: I have a Rock Hard In Cab Cage, with the legs that tie it to the floor. So, when I took off this bracket, the tapped plate slid down. Real fun trying to get it back in position with the down leg right in the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!

20200707_151038.jpg

I do NOT think it is a good idea trying to drill out/sleeve the lower bracket, they will just "uncurl". However, the windshield hing post bracket is actually a continuous tube, so it can bored out easy enough:

20200707_151052.jpg

I folded the windshield down to bore out this bracket. The chuck still rubbed the top of the bracket, my 1/2" bit was just a hair too short.
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
Been awhile since I folded the windshield frame down, usually just when I am working on the wipers........... We will return to that thought later......

20200707_151241.jpg

I have "Nutserts" in my aftermarket windshield frame to hold down the soft top/bikini top header. When I used to run the soft top, and drive cross country, the sheet metal screws would pull out the windshield frame. Well, you can see the "Nutserts" are trying to pull out the WS frame, too!! The metal is actually stress cracked around one of the "Nutserts"!!!!!! This is why I sold the 1/2 soft top and went back to the 1/2 hard top. 12 plus hours of 75+ MPH is just too hard on the Whitco Tops.

20200707_151258.jpg

Bushing installed in the upper hinge bracket no problem.

20200707_151656.jpg

The bushing are a good idea for the upper brackets. If the lower brackets are wore out, good used OEM replacements are probably the safest bet.

Aligning the hinge bracket holes:

20200707_160823.jpg

With the lower bushing not exactly where it should be, I have the lower bracket shoved all the way forward to compensate.

20200707_160906.jpg

Door mounted back up, adjusted, works properly:

20200707_161106.jpg

Note the shaft collars and the severe misalignment at the lower hinge bracket:

20200707_161114.jpg

20200707_161121.jpg

I will be replacing both lower hinge brackets soon. No way to "fix" them.

Ran the wire for my secondary temp gauge. The sender will be installed in the thermostat housing, next to the Mopar MPI coolant sneding unit.

20200708_102013.jpg

Ran the wire through the plastic injector harness protector thing, and through the fire wall speedometer cable grommet, right next to my blue CEL wire. Whenever I run wires, I use this blue wire, that way I know it is something I did:

20200708_102021.jpg

While waiting for parts, I think I solved my windshield wiper issues!!!!!!!!!!!

More on this later.
 

Belizeit

CJ-8 Member
CJ-8.com Member
City
River Ridge
State
La
I have no way of proving it, but I have seen several windshield stress cracks. Mine had it early on and I never did high speed drives like you. My thoughts are they used a pneumatic punch in the assembly line to start the hole for the screws in a hurry. :shrug:
 

Jeeperdd

CJ-8 Member
CJ-8.com Member
City
Gordonsville
State
VA
If you weld up the lower hinge brackets so that they are solid. It makes them easier to drill. I did that when I was putting JMU scrambler together.
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
I have no way of proving it, but I have seen several windshield stress cracks. Mine had it early on and I never did high speed drives like you. My thoughts are they used a pneumatic punch in the assembly line to start the hole for the screws in a hurry. :shrug:
Maybe so, but this was an aftermarket WS frame that I drilled originally. I think the metal on the aftermarket frames is thinner than the OEM frames :shrug: Maybe the act of installing the "nutserts" added to the trauma :shrug:
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
My WS wipers have never worked correctly once I installed the aftermarket WS frame 10 years ago. I have just dealt with it. I originally placed all the blame on the aftermarket WS frame being out of tolerance, but some of the blame also should go the supposedly "NOS" wiper motor I bought from Collins Brothers.

To recap, my wiper linkage binds up. When I rebuilt the Jeep, I installed all new aftermarket linkage. It all broke and fell apart due to the binding. I changed motor, still bound up. I built a custom short linkage out of fine all thread and spherical rod ends. This worked perfectly, but the added weight/mods I had to perform to the aftermarket linkage to get it to work weakened the pivots, and it all fell apart.

So, I drilled out the mounting holes on the wiper body, left these bolts loose, and installed used/good shape OEM lnkage. This works, but it is kind of funny watching the motor "saw back and forth" across the WS frame. Works fine, doesn't bind up, but very shoddy.

After 10 years, countless cross country trips with marginal wiper performance, I finally had enough, decided to try and fix this issue one last time.

I saw that "certifiablejeep" was parting out some CJ's recently, so I took the opportunity to buy a used OEM motor, used OEM linkage, and the "upgraded" intermittent wiper switch stuff:

20200708_110751.jpg

The short linkage is missing a bushing, but my currently installed OEM linkage set up is intact and in good shape. It looks like this short linkage bound up because the arm is bent where the missing bushing belongs. Perhaps the rusty WS frame caused a cave in and the wiper linkage bound up? Who knows, but thanks again "certifiablejeeper"!!!!!!!!!!

On my present set up, the only way to get the linkage not to bind is to position the motor like so:

Slotted hole:

20200708_130019.jpg

Middle hole, you can't even see it:

20200708_130033.jpg

Far outer hole:

20200708_130025.jpg

And, this is with the holes in the wiper body drilled/sanded/filed/bored out. So, definitely not right, way out of whack.

And of course, the in cab cage down legs rear their ugly heads again!!!!! The DS down leg partially covers the hole that the wiper motor plug passes through:

20200708_130310.jpg

So, out comes the little pick, remove the wires from the old plug, able to get it out in one piece:

20200708_130551.jpg

20200708_130806.jpg

20200708_130810.jpg

Used the same technique to take apart the "new to me used motor" wire plug.

Comparing the supposedly "NOS Collins Brother's" wiper motor with the used original motor I got from "certifiablejeeper":

20200708_131306.jpg

Used on the Right, CB on the left. Besides the lack of the "Made in Japan", and the other ink writing on the CB motor, the CB motor wiper arm is different then the OEM arm.

It is hard to see in the picture, but I took out my caliper and started measuring. There is a difference between the two arms. Not much, but I only need 1 or 2mm to get this tow work correctly.

With the arm not being correct, it alters the geometry/throw of the short link. It is pushing/pulling this link too far, causing binding. With the old motor loose, the motors movement on the frame would keep the linkage from binding up against the first pivot, and tearing up the WS frame.

It is not a drastic difference, but this is 95% of my problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
So, I bolted on the used motor, as it came, and now I only have the lightest of a "tap" when the arm is pulling back against the first pivot.

Hard to see, but the screw driver is pointing to the "stop" on the first pivot. When the motor pulls the arm back, it is pulling it back just a hair too far. Not bad, it just "taps":

20200708_132640.jpg

I could lightly file this "stop" down, and it would be 100% perfect.

And, this is with the wiper motor bolted solidly in place, all three bolts. Just a light "tap":

20200708_132656.jpg

Now, before I go filing/modding stuff, one "issue" with the new to me used motor: At the "park" position, the wiper motor arm is not in the 100% correct position. It returns to the same spot every time, which is good. I just need to pull the arm off, with the motor at "park", and reposition it 2 to 3 splines over.

In the below picture, you can see the arm position at "park" difference: the supposedly NOS CB unit is correct, the used one is off a bit:

20200708_131310.jpg

So, I am going to reposition the wiper motor arm, reinstall, check for any "tap".

IF I need to do anything, I am just going to lightly file the "stop" on the inner side of the first pivot. It currently does not contact hard, doesn't bind at all, just a light "tap" sound on this part of the stroke. The repositioned arm might cure this, as unlikely as that sounds.

Ten years, 42,000 miles, and a supposedly "NOS" part could have been the cause of all of my problems :banghead:

If repositioning the arm cures my problem 100%, then the wiper motor arm is to blame 100%.

BUT, I still think the WS frame motor mounting holes are off ever so slightly.

Regardless, it is not going to take much more effort at all to get my wipers working 100% correctly, and I will be able to add the "intermittent" function, too :woot:

I know some people bash the stock wiper system, but on 2 of the 2 current Jeep CJ's that I own, plus the tan Scrambler that I sold, all three have/had OEM WS frames and all OEM wiper motors/linkage, no problems with any of them. They all function correctly, no binding, no noise.

Hopefully, soon, I will be 3 for 3 on CJ's that I own :fingerscrossed:

Will be nice to set off cross country and not have to worry about the wiper motor falling out into my lap :rotfl:
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
I don't really know what the "perfect" lubricant would be?

It is metal posts on brass/bronze bushings. Light oil would be perfect, but would run off. Chassis grease a little too thick? I spray some white litium grease on the parts before assembly, then re-spray if/when I take it apart. :shrug:
 

Randyzzz

Blown Budget
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
SOA Member
City
Redmond
State
OR
I don't really know what the "perfect" lubricant would be?

It is metal posts on brass/bronze bushings. Light oil would be perfect, but would run off. Chassis grease a little too thick? I spray some white litium grease on the parts before assembly, then re-spray if/when I take it apart. :shrug:
I have some Lucas gun oil that “clings” like crazy. But for that matter, the “Red and Tacky” grease would probably work great!
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
I filed the "stop" on the driver side pivot, but it made no difference:

20200710_140442.jpg

Even with the "stop" filed down, the motor is in the wrong spot. So, even thought I am no longer hitting the "stop" hard, the motor is still putting too much "stroke" against the stop.

With only the inner most bolt tightened down, the "slotted"hole in the motor, the system works perfect. But, the other two holes in the WS frame are not even close to lining up with the holes in the wiper motor:

20200710_142235.jpg

20200710_142244.jpg

The wiper motor threaded mounting holes in my aftermarket WS frame are just too far off. No easy way of drilling new holes, or slotting the existing holes out, in the WS frame to get everything lined up. No real way to fish nuts/bolts back there to clamp down the motor.

So, I "cut/slotted" the middle hole mounting ears off, filed down the outer most hole, in the wiper motor:

20200710_144401.jpg

20200710_144408.jpg

Butch, but now the wipers work perfect!!!!!!!

Big washer over the slotted hole mounting bolt:

20200710_150033.jpg

Had to use an allen head cap screw to secure the outer most hole. I also cut out a washer into a "C" shape to fit. Butch, holds down perfect:

20200710_150040.jpg

Another view of all three mounting bolts doing their job. You can see how far off the holes in the WS frame were. I have the moto pushed over/outward probably close to 5/16":

20200710_150958.jpg

I had to cut off this bit of the rubber mounting grommet when I went to install the wiper motor cover. That is how far off these holes are:

20200710_151004.jpg

While I was in here, went ahead and added a dedicated ground wire to the wiper motor. Why not?

20200710_152534.jpg
 
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