New guy with and interesting find (Overlander Build)

[spankrjs]

I think that the frame would require substantial modifications to handle the weight and torque of the diesel. Also, that is a lot of torque to be flowing to a 44 rear and a 30 front. Just something else to think about

Your frame could be modified/reinforced to handle the motor, the stock axles and suspension could be swapped out to handle the motor, but then what part, besides the body, would be left of such a rare find, 1986 export CJ8

Personally, if I ever found something like this, I would try to keep it original. You can always find another Scrambler to perform all the mods on. The diesel engine is very cool, but by the time you do all the necesary work to make that mod "right", your not left with much of the original, rare 86 Just my

Either way, stock or modded, it is a great find and will make a great driver

 

[Jeremy]

This is my good friend Tom's 1985 CJ7, It sports a VM 3.8 liter 6 cylinder Intercooled turbo Diesel, T18, build dana18 TC with a warn over drive, Sprung on oldman emu wrangler springs with axles (under the axles) from a FSJ (offset rear which allows for high clearance on one side, and front dana 44s) and ARB airlockers with 3:73 gears, probably the only thing NOT modified on this jeep is the frame. The frame would take the diesel. Tom's jeep is also converter to run on either diesel or used vegetable oil. It sounds all the world like a M113A5 APC in the woods and smells like a french fry fryer on the freeway, he has been running this for 10 years now on a unmodified stock frame However I would plate reinforcements in it just to be on the safe side as the inner frame rail section is pretty thin (fixing rust on my 1982 NOW in fact). Tom relocated to Texas from Pennsylvania a few years ago. (I told him it was a squad peg into a round hole when he concocted this hair brained scheme of a swap done (literally) under a maple tree with my come-a-long. Tom's Jeep is quite a "sleeper" in that it looks stock until you really look at it this may be a way to go for you. Never mind those wavy body lines, those predate the diesel and have more to do with Tom challenging and conquering obstacles with 31" tires that jeeps with 35" tires have trouble with and rust belt rust.

I would continue with the previous owners planned drive train it is pretty well thought out. A double over drive is to help keep the diesel in its tight rpm band, the auxiliary tranny will let you split your gears. But, part of owning a jeep is making it yours with your decisions and needs. http://www.jeffdanielsjeeps.com/ (near Philadelphia, PA) Has been converting Jeeps to long wheelbase and diesel (cummins) engines for humanitarian aid and expeditions . They are probably a good authority on finishing the swap as planned, they are kind of far away but would probably help you out with information.

This is a excellent find. I do not know if your interest are in four wheeling or jeeping with the rest of us, if that is something that interest you it effects advice being given. ( I do encourage you to try it at least ) I would consider Rhino lining the tub to protect it from rust (although that is permanent ) Sam's Offroad makes a rear traction bar, that is going to be NECESSARY to prevent rear axle wrap due to spring over and a diesel and gearing. Tom's jeep has to have one with spring under suspension and had big problems with axles wrap. The decisions are in the end yours of course but everybody here is going to have a learned opinion and resources to help you out, this is a great group, if you are lucky enough to meet us in person we have even gone so far as to build a restored CJ8 out of every body's spare parts. I guess what it comes down to is you need to identify what your goals are then we can give more appropriate input to help decisions. Don't discount the strength of a carefully build dana 44 and dana 30 axle combo, that is what is in my 1982 using ARB air locker 4.27 gear and WARN axles and hubs on 35" tires, usually what I break is relatively cheap drive shaft U joints, which is a good thing. However 33" stress things a whole lot less.

 

[Orionn]

VERY KOOL!
That is one gorgeous CJ-8, and a true '86 to boot!
I love the world top and square doors, not to mention the jump seats.

As for the frame concerns, I agree, the 4b wont harm it, and the weight wont be a concern either.
That said, if I were doing it, I would build a sub frame/cradle to put the engine and transmision on, that way you can stiffen up the frame, along with spreading the wieght and torque loads over a larger area/# of mounts.

I would also contact someone like Hagerty Insurence to get an appraisal/insurence quote from them. its what they specialize in.

It sure is a beauty! I am looking foreward to seeing it in the comming months as you put it back together.

 

[spankrjs]

Y'all either have better luck with frames or drive way easier then me I "tweaked" the frame under my '78 CJ7 with a built 304. The frame started out straight, level, and true. No rust or collision damage of any kind. After 3 years of driving it I am willing to bet the frame is "twisted" out of level and true, from front to back by 2 inches from "torque" twist With a 304 and T18, starting out in 1st gear 2 wheel drive High range with just a little throttle I could just about pick the front drivers side tire off the ground from torque twist. Some of the twist could be contributed ot suspension, but I never had a problem with rear axle wrap I am willing to bet that diesel puts out as much, if not more, off idle torque then a built 304

Either way, great jeep, and it will be great built or stock. Sorry if I offended anybody

 

[Manhattan]

As was said, as much as WE love this... the rest of the world doesn't. It's not a Hemi 'Cuda or Yenko Camaro. We've all seen the two CJs - the 7 and 8; both with under 1,000 miles in showroom condition for sale. Neither brought more than 40k. I don't know if either came close to that actually. The equivalent Yenko or 'Cuda would be north of $1,000,000...

Punchline: I'd build it as you want it... within reason. I wouldn't "customize" it - anything that couldn't be undone later.

Ya know, I can relieve your stress on this - just trade me. Come on... think about it, motor's in, paint's shiny...

 

[bobbysjeep]

Out of curiosity, are you going to put the diesel engine and all the other non-factory power train components on it, or are you going to return it to stock condition? It would almost be a shame to modify such a rare Scrambler, especially a 1986 export model Either way, it is a great looking Scrambler project, congrats

I vote for stock drive train. I completely agree that if you are going to modify, line-x or anything else, buy a already modified rig and customize it. I think the real value of this rig is the fact that its a rare original. It may not fetch $40K today but who's to say what a rare gem like this could bring 10 or 15 years from now?

 

[Jeep Addict]

How much would that motor and trans fetch if you sold them to go stock? I read where someone else posted you may get your money back in just those items.

Do you plan on taking it to Africa and fulfilling the previous owner's dreams to take pictures of lions and monkeys? If not, build it for you. If so, send me some pics

But really do it for you. I learned that answer a long time ago on this site. It's been great advice thus far.

 

[mssldn]

That is an amazing find and a beautiful rare Jeep.

 

[Randyzzz]

I'm obviously not a purist... my would be to build it the way you want it. I think it would be just awesome to see that diesel in there...

 

[Buffy]

How much would that motor and trans fetch if you sold them to go stock? I read where someone else posted you may get your money back in just those items.

I am not sure what I could get for the motor and trans. I know new 4BTs are around the 8K mark and new Richmond transmissions maybe 2500?? Not sure what the overdrive unit goes for and it is new as well. I am still on the fence about wich way to go. If I do install the diesel in it, I will do it in such a way that I can reverse it and put it back to stock. I also don't see me hard core wheeling the trails at Uwharrie but I don't plan on it sit in my garage and collect dust. I am doing some research and trying to learn the history of the Jeep and keeping the group here informed of what I find.

 

[1x1_Speed_Craig]

I am struggeling with that decision as we speak. The original 4cylinder motor was donated to a school in Florida and is long gone. I am sure I could source one eventually that is of the correct time period. I have read that I would have to plate the frame to give enough strength to handle the torque of the Cummins. Otherwise, the frame would warp and crease the body. I am not sure if there is any truth to this or not. I was planning on doing some serious research before breaking out the torches and welders and modifying anything.

Looking for some advice from the experts.....

The original "matching numbers" motor is gone. Build it how you want, but try to preserve the stock-ish characteristics. Personally, I'd put the diesel in (I bailed on a similar diesel Scrambler project a while back), keep the stock axles (you're already lucky enough to have the rare D44 in the rear, and switch it back to spring-under. The spring-over set-up, on a vehicle like this, looks silly, IMO.

One name says it all Cheif wahoo, he makes lazer cut plates, simple to install and cheap, cant say enough about how much thet rock. Doin this jeep thing is all about doing what you want, put in the enine you want, period. With time and money being your limitations

x2

I haven't used CHIEFWAHO's front frame plates, but have installed MORE frame plates on the front of two Scrambler frames. If you're sticking with the diesel, I'd definitely do it.

The motor won't tweak the frame because of its torque. If you plan on off-roading it hard, that is what will cause frame damage. Prior to my conversion, the venerable Racinrudy had put a hot LT1 in my jeep with no frame mods. If that didn't tweak
the frame, the 4BT won't either.

Personally, I kind of disagree, and think it totally depends on the motor, driving style, etc. Frame plates are insurance, and visually, 90% of the people looking at the Jeep will never notice they're there.



Great find! It's seriously a once in a lifetime Jeep find (and I have found some rare ones). Welcome to the forum, too.

Craig

 

[RedRaider43]

I have been wiping the drool off of my keyboard.

 

[Buffy]

Does CHIEFWAHO or MORE have a website to get an idea of the cost of their plates? I spoke with Jay at Jeff Daniels this morings. I am seriously considering have them install the drivetrain. Jay says they can make it look factory when they are done. I could fab something up myself but why re-invent the wheel if I don't have to, especially when it comes to making the wiring look factory.

 

[1x1_Speed_Craig]

Does CHIEFWAHO or MORE have a website to get an idea of the cost of their plates? I spoke with Jay at Jeff Daniels this morings. I am seriously considering have them install the drivetrain. Jay says they can make it look factory when they are done. I could fab something up myself but why re-invent the wheel if I don't have to, especially when it comes to making the wiring look factory.

You'll have to PM Jason (CHIEFWAHO) for info on his plates.

CLICK HERE for the MORE link. They're currently on sale for $132...GREAT price! There's no way I'd try making my own for that price, and I'm not afraid to fab stuff up.

The frame plates should be stitch-welded on (I did 2" on, 2" off). DO NOT have them welded all-around, as any water that gets in through the holes will not have a place to drain out the bottom. If you want to PM me your e-mail address, I can send you some photos of the couple installs I did.

Craig

 

[MrBeep]

Pm

Sent you a PM.

 

[AK-RWC]

The original "matching numbers" motor is gone.

AMC never matched engine serial numbers to the VIN. This has come up occassionally on an AMC board that I've frequented off-and-on over the years. So long as the same kind/displacement of engine is installed, there's no way to know it wasn't the original engine, and at least in the AMC Javelin/AMX crowd, it doesn't impact the vehicle's value if a non-original-but-correct engine is in the frame.

 

[Jeep Addict]

I've also read where they scrambler would be very underpowered with the full metal world cab top and four cylinder. It may have beeen ordered that way specifically for an engine swap in mind.

I've never driven a four cylinder Scrambler but, my postal with the full metal world cab top and 258 gets it pretty good. Plenty enough power for just cruising around.

 

[Jeremy]

Thats true, had a friend in high school that has a1978 cherokee chief with a "360cid" upon rebuilding it found out it has a AMC 401" instead, heard somewhere that they ran out of 360s and had a pile of extra 401s from the old AMC Ambassador line, the factory just substitued them until more 360s came available. See some of the wacky stuff you find under the hood of a "factory" jeep of that era I kind of believe that old ledgend as probable.

 

[AK-RWC]

Thats true, had a friend in high school that has a1978 cherokee chief with a "360cid" upon rebuilding it found out it has a AMC 401" instead, heard somewhere that they ran out of 360s and had a pile of extra 401s from the old AMC Ambassador line, the factory just substitued them until more 360s came available. See some of the wacky stuff you find under the hood of a "factory" jeep of that era I kind of believe that old ledgend as probable.

That's not quite what I meant. The AMC VIN DOES reflect which size/displacement engine, but it is not a one-off serialized system the way, say, Corvettes, are, where the serial numbers on the engine, heads, and chassis are all tied together, and a "numbers matching" 'Vette is therefore worth more. I'm saying it doesn't matter which actual, physical engine block is in an AMC, so long as it is the correct size/kind, because the serial number on a particular block is not tied to a particular frame/body.

401s were intentionally put into the FSJ vehicles during their production run, and that fact is reflected in the VIN with the letter "Z" in the engine displacement code. Here is an old reference thread from the IFSJA board:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/archive/index.php/t-34233.html
So while I don't doubt that AMC may have run out of 360s and finished a production day/week/month using all 401s, that fact would have been reflected in the VIN assigned to that FSJ.

Odds are good that either your buddy bought the Jeep used, and a previous owner swapped the 401 block in, or else your buddy made an assumption that his FSJ was produced with a 360 without ever verifying the VIN and/or the engine casting.

 

[AusCJ8]

Thats true, had a friend in high school that has a1978 cherokee chief with a "360cid" upon rebuilding it found out it has a AMC 401" instead, heard somewhere that they ran out of 360s and had a pile of extra 401s from the old AMC Ambassador line, the factory just substitued them until more 360s came available. See some of the wacky stuff you find under the hood of a "factory" jeep of that era I kind of believe that old ledgend as probable.

A guy on the Ausjeepforum had the same story. He bought an FSJ was doing a frame off, as far as he and the previous owner was concerned it was all factory. got down to pulling the engine and there is was, stamped 401.