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"Not Alaskan" Postal CJ8 Hardtop idea

Kahn Strictor

Basic User
City
Southwest
State
OH
I was looking at a Chevy van in particular, but, if I can manage to scrounge up blueprints for the WC it will make life a lot easier....

Wm
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
Reminds me of AEV's Expedition Unlimited- I like the look although I think making the front slope would be aesthetically required.

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Of course- french some lights into the leading edge, make the top pop like the old VW vans, Hmmm...

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Good idea, Jeff. :thumbsup:

Here's a starter idea for a Scrambler-based expedition camper...

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EDIT: http://www.mansfieldambulance.com/ph...20Medic Unit
 
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donaghy

CJ-8.COM owner
SOA Member
FORUM OWNER
City
Lexington
State
SC
hmmmmmm

that surburban roof with the rips already on there... stirs my mind on several ideas of molding that roof....

Also. Jeff, got any more info on that Scrambulance. I hadn't seen the pictures of that pop up in a long time. I used to have an email from that guy a long time ago that had the history and some info on it. But, seems like I lost it on my switch to gmail.

Matt
 

Kahn Strictor

Basic User
City
Southwest
State
OH
That rascal has Ohio plates on it, I'll ask the owner for details and go take measurements of it if we can pin down its location.

Wm
 

Kahn Strictor

Basic User
City
Southwest
State
OH
In effort to locate blueprints I'm trying to find some production info.....

Company name that actually produced the WC? Still in business?
Company name of businesses that produced WC or their clone elsewhere in the world?
Where all were CJ8s, clones or similar models made? US Alaskan Postal, Aussie Overlander, Israeli Storm M-240, Korean Korando, Venezuelan long CJ7/long Wrangler...what else? I've read mention that something similar was used in Egypt but can't find any other details.

If I can get leads on the WC design/manufacture/distribution along with similar vehicles/tops I'll exhaust them to get prints we can make use of....any and all ideas appreciated.

Wm
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
In effort to locate blueprints I'm trying to find some production info.....

Company name that actually produced the WC? Still in business?
Company name of businesses that produced WC or their clone elsewhere in the world?
Where all were CJ8s, clones or similar models made? US Alaskan Postal, Aussie Overlander, Israeli Storm M-240, Korean Korando, Venezuelan long CJ7/long Wrangler...what else? I've read mention that something similar was used in Egypt but can't find any other details.

If I can get leads on the WC design/manufacture/distribution along with similar vehicles/tops I'll exhaust them to get prints we can make use of....any and all ideas appreciated.

Wm

I doubt you'll have much luck getting blueprints, and even if you have them, I'm not sure exactly how you'd use them to make new tops - the blueprints would probably be for the dies to stamp the parts, and creating dies is a hugely expensive undertaking.

For what it's worth, here's my belief on how the World Cabs came about. This is mostly conjecture guided by a few historical facts and a lot of experience on how international companies with semi-autonomous international subsidiaries work, perhaps this will give you some guidance on your search...

I think:

In the late 70's, the Venezuelan arm of Jeep wanted a more useful hardtop than the factory CJ fiberglass top. Specifically, they needed more passenger capacity, which implied "troop" stype seating in the back, necessitating a higher roofline. So they created the Llanero top, shown in the 1980 advertisement below (thanks Eric). Note this ad predates the World Cab by several years, also note the troop seating in the back, four people longitudinally.

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When the "home office" saw the Llanero top, they started to think the Venezuelans were on to something - something that would give Jeep a way to compete internationally with the Land Rover 110 - it also offered had troop seating and a higher roofline, so it was a much more useful vehicle in many countries.

The Toledo engineers took some design cues from the Venezuelan top design (like the raised roof and the "square corner" doors), but reengineered the components to be usable in several different configurations - CJ-7, CJ-8, and CJ-10, the last two of which the Venezuelans didn't have yet. They also reengineered it for CKD (completely knocked down) shipment, so it could be sent anywhere in the world in a minimal size package. The cost-reduced it as well, eliminating the expensive curved glass side/rear windows that the Venezuelan top had.

Once the design was done, probably Jeep Toledo had the stampings done in a third-party stamping plant, which is very common in the auto industry, especially for limited run or speculative items like these tops.

They then created marketing and promotional materials to sell Jeeps with these tops in other parts of the world, one example is below, I've got quite a collection of other examples as well:

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All of the World Cab parts, including the troop seating, and both CJ-7 and CJ-8 variants made it into the standard Jeep factory parts books that every dealer in the US would have (ask your dealer to see their old CJ parts book some day), but Jeep never offered a factory-configured CJ with a World Cab for retail sale in the US. There were 230 sold on contract to the USPS that are now famous as the Alaskan Postals, but no evidence has turned up of any other US shipments or quantity orders.

Jeep shipped some of the tops in CKD form to other countries (Australia in particular) and I believe limited samples to other countries (like the CJ-7 WC I picked up in Wales), and allowed larger subsidiaries the option of doing their own stamping. I would guess Venezuela did their own stamping, based on the large numbers of WC's one can find there, although they could have all been CKD's as well. If we could get a Venezuelan VIN we could answer that question.

The stampings were also picked up by licensees which assembled CKD Jeeps built in Toledo; for example the AIL Storm, as I have heard it, was a "YJ-L" built in Toledo and shipped CKD to Israel for assembly. There could have been WC's assembled in Egypt by the Jeep operation their, but I have yet to turn up any evidence of them.

The only places where CKD (or locally produced) World Cabs were assembled/sold in any quantity were Venezuela (largest number by far), Australia, and Israel (sold also to some neighboring countries I believe, they are common in Lebanon, for example, according to a Lebanese friend of mine who's offered to help me import some used ones from there if I want). Any other examples in other countries were done in very limited numbers.

Other "Jeep" licensees, like Korando (Korea) and Mahindra (India) licensed the basic Jeep products, but localized their sheet metal based on in-country requirements, as as far as I know, neither Korando nor Mahindra produced World Cabs.

They did, however, product fascinating variants on the basic Jeep; my all-time favorite is the Mahindra Marshal, a LWB 4-door variant shown below. One of these days I would like import a Marshal body from India and put it on TJ running gear. I've got friends in India anxious to help me with that project. If you look closely, you can see many sheet metal changes in the cowl, grille, doors, etc... One of these days I'll build a TJ Marshal...

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Anyway, some or all of the above may be completely untrue, we'd have to find a Jeep engineer from the 80's to verify or deny my work of fiction above. But like I said, based on what I know and what I've learned from managing in international companies with semi-autonomous subsidiaries, this is the story I'd like to believe until someone authoritative comes up with a better story. :)

Jeff
 
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Kahn Strictor

Basic User
City
Southwest
State
OH
Have any good rear photos of the Marshal? I like that roof better than the WC....and like the sides of that body better than any open top Jeep, it has a "Willys Wagon" look to it.

Wm
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
Have any good rear photos of the Marshal? I like that roof better than the WC....and like the sides of that body better than any open top Jeep, it has a "Willys Wagon" look to it.

Wm

Of course. Here's one I took just outside of Darjeeling in the Indian Himalayas:

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Kahn Strictor

Basic User
City
Southwest
State
OH
I really like the top cap of the Marshals top, it's much more appealing than the flatter, squarer "flying brick" look of the WC. The rear door looks shorter and wider than those on the WC, similar to what the DJ5 door looks like. A blend of the WC rear door in the Marshal top is most agreeable and doable. The Marshal top appears to be easier to duplicate by using the sides, door and rear from a DJ5 and then capping it with a sectioned top from one of the humped top medical/personel Ford/Chevy vans.

The reason I'm looking for prints is that somewhere in them there has to be finished panel sizes, strike points and stroke depths which would tell the varying rise amounts from the gutter up. See, I'm flying blind on my end as I have no WC tops of any kind to get dimensions from or to see how they're made....with my fab background if I had a top or a print I know I could reproduce it or at bare minimum one that was nearly identical...with exception of the Jeep embossed door section.

Wm
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
The rear door looks shorter and wider than those on the WC, similar to what the DJ5 door looks like.
The Mahindra rear door is roughly the same height as the DJ rear door, but unlike the completely straight DJ door, there's a bend in the middle of the Mahindra door and the top half angles forward.

The door is wider, because the Mahindra tub is at least 4" wider than a CJ tub.

I could reproduce it or at bare minimum one that was nearly identical...with exception of the Jeep embossed door section.
The Jeep logo embossing on the WC rear door is identical to that on the CJ-7/8 tailgates so you could cut the embossing out of one of those.

We anxiously await your build thread...
 

bigwalton

Alaskan Postal nutjob
FORUM MANAGER
SOA Member
City
Dexter
State
MI
Ever lay a tape measure on a Marshal? Especially in the second pic of the grey one, it looks a pretty good bit wider than a CJ/YJ/TJ, judging from the size of that spare relative to the width of the door and the rear corners.
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
Ever lay a tape measure on a Marshal? Especially in the second pic of the grey one, it looks a pretty good bit wider than a CJ/YJ/TJ, judging from the size of that spare relative to the width of the door and the rear corners.

Sorry, no. Next time I'm in India, I promise :)
 

bigwalton

Alaskan Postal nutjob
FORUM MANAGER
SOA Member
City
Dexter
State
MI
I only asked because you mentioned that you're going to do this TJ Marshal thing and your planning skills are so legendary that I thought there were drawings in the works with all the details ;)

If you were going to make something 6x6, I think the proportions of the Marshal are better suited :evil:
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
I only asked because you mentioned that you're going to do this TJ Marshal thing and your planning skills are so legendary that I thought there were drawings in the works with all the details ;)

No, not planning that far ahead. But...

I believe the main difference in width can be seen at the side of the cowl, just below the curve. You can see how it juts out on the Savari (Hindi for "ride") below and on the earlier photo of the Marshal. Each side juts out about 2", so I figure the Mahindra tub is 4" wider than the CJ/TJ tubs. Also notice the Mahindra Marshalls don't have flares (the Savari does have flares, I believe it has larger/wider tires than the Marshal), the Marshals have very narrow tires/wheels. With all of that I figure stock TJ axles with 8" wheels would fill out the wheel wells just fine with no flares. When and if I get serious about that project I'll have my friends in India do some measurements for me.

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If you were going to make something 6x6, I think the proportions of the Marshal are better suited :evil:

No no no no no. No 6x6. Never. Ever.

But wouldn't the Savari make a nice base for an expedition camper? :)
 

charliev

Basic User
City
Cape Cod
State
ma
Jeff,

Are the front fender mounted directionals that I see on these availible in the aftermarket? I have seen them on all the WCs from Oz that are on this site as well. Since my winch plate blocks the stock front directionals, I would like to add something like that. Very cool, as are the euro spec tail lights on your WC. Thoughts?
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
Jeff,

Are the front fender mounted directionals that I see on these availible in the aftermarket? I have seen them on all the WCs from Oz that are on this site as well. Since my winch plate blocks the stock front directionals, I would like to add something like that. Very cool, as are the euro spec tail lights on your WC. Thoughts?

Charlie,
I haven't seen the front directionals in the US, but you could probably find a parts supplier based in the UK or somewhere else (just be prepared for the cost). Strange they're not available here, since the export tail lights are available from places like Quatratec and 4WD Hardware. On second thought, check with those guys - I just remembered you won't find the tail lights in their catalogs, but they do in fact sell them, you just have to know the part number. Maybe they have the front lights if you ask.
 

jscherb

CJ-8 Member
City
Elmira
State
NY
Jeff,

Are the front fender mounted directionals that I see on these availible in the aftermarket? I have seen them on all the WCs from Oz that are on this site as well. Since my winch plate blocks the stock front directionals, I would like to add something like that. Very cool, as are the euro spec tail lights on your WC. Thoughts?

Charlie,
The Jeep part numbers for the export directionals are J5758802 for the right and J5758803 for the left. A quick check of 4WD and Quadratec didn't turn up anything.
Jeff
 

Kahn Strictor

Basic User
City
Southwest
State
OH
Anyone interested in helping out by posting the measurements of their WC panels? I can send or post an image of each panel shape if that would be an easier way for you to record the measurements.....

Wm
 
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