Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

[spankrjs]

Quick copy and paste from last year, when I first installed a T5:

"And after endless Internet searching, researching, and talking to mechanics, I finally chose an oil to put in my T5. If you get bored one day, just Google "T5 fluid". How I made my decision:

The FSM calls for regular gear oil. They then revised this to AMC Part# 8983 000 000. To confuse the issue, they later said that it is "OK to top off with gear oil, but complete fluid changes should only use 8983 000 000". Of course, you can no longer buy AMC Part# 8983 000 000. Chrysler, who bought out AMC, says that their Mopar 4874464 is equal to the AMC Part # 4874464. The Mopar stuff is a synthetic manual transmission fluid used in the NV 3500's and NSG370 manual transmissions. I figure that if my 05 Rubicon's manual transmission has lasted 125,000 miles with the Mopar stuff in it, should work fine in a T5. NOTE - World Class T5's must use ATF due to the friction bands of their synchronizers.

The Mopar Part # 4874464 can supposedly be replaced by the following fluids:

AMSOIL 5-30 Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid
Pennzoil Synchromesh (supposedly the same thing as 30 weight synthetic oil)
GM Synchromesh Transmission fluids
Royal Purple Synchromax

The Mopar stuff and the synthetics range from $12-$20 a quart. The Pennzoil is about $7 a quart.


I think the biggest issue is that the T5 has to have some type of fluid in it. I know people who have successfully used 80-90 weight gear oil and ATF in these non world class T5's successfully. For me, the ATF always seemed too thin and the gear oil seemed to thick. The Mopar stuff is just in between, as far as viscosity goes.

I personally think that the 80-90 weight gear oil is too thick for these transmissions. We can get away with it down here in the south, due to our higher temperatures. Also, after comparing the internals of a T5 (small bearings, small oil ports and passages) to the other gear boxes I have built (Dana 20, Dana 300, T176, T150, T18 which all have much bigger bearings and oil passages) I think the thinner oil is the right choice for the Jeep non world class T5.

Well, that's my theory anyway"

 

[AK-RWC]

I actually might have a couple bottles hidden away of AMC Part# 8983 000 000.

 

[spankrjs]

I actually might have a couple bottles hidden away of AMC Part# 8983 000 000.

Appreciate it I might have to take you up on that for my stock green Scrambler

But, as far as this red Scrambler goes, the T5's just hit strike 3, they are out

For whatever reason, the torque output/tire size/my driving style/front and rear lockers/4:1 Dana 300/"moderate trail" riding(Pritchett Canyon was fun) is just not condusive for a T5's health


And, maybe I put something together wrong I am not perfect, I make mistakes, I will easily say that

A thorough autopsy will be perfomed on this T5, PLUS the clutch/bellhousing/throwout bearing, any and every part involved.

I checked the pilot bushing when the last T5 blew up, and it was still good. But, maybe it blew up, causing the input shaft to wobble, leading to gear misalignment, leading up to the big BOOM. I am not sure yet, but I sure want to find out.

Once I get this one down, I will be sure and post up lots of pictures, and include my observations.

Any and all input/questions/concerns/criticisms/suggestions/observations are welcome

 

[spankrjs]

After taking a mini "no work on Scrambler vacation", I pulled out the blown up T5. No more T5's for this Scrambler, it eats them up like Rosie O'Donnell at a Twinkie buffet!!!

Skid plate full of T5 blood.

After removing the T5 to bellhousing bolts, more T5 blood.

And the broke T5/good Dana 300 combo, looking guilty. I still need to "autopsy" this busted T5, and throw whatever good parts it has left into my ever expanding pile of spare T5 parts, I have enough parts to build at least 3 (only missing cluster gears and input shafts).

And an interesting discovery: this time, the pilot bushing is wasted. The last two times, no problem with the pilot bushing. This could be one of those "What came first, the chicken or the egg" things - i.e. did busted input shaft cause blown up pilot bushing, or did busted pilot bushing cause busted input shaft?? Might never know..............

The picture with the socket inside the bushing doesn't make sense because I did not take a picture of the new bushing. Basically, the old bushing got wallowed out a bunch. IIRC, it was a POS Crown bushing, more "coppery/brass" then oilite material.

I bought a new bushing before hand, and of course, it is incorrect.

The bushing on the left, under the part #, is what the computer said to use. This is incorrect, the OD is way too big. The bushing on the right came out of a NAPA clutch kit I have in the garage for a future project, it is correct.


Quick comparison shot, T176 on the left, T5 on the right. Note the mounting bolt pattern difference.

And for some unknown reason, the T176 does not want to go back in. This is where it has been sitting the last few days.

It is being supported by the jack, plus it is bolted to the bell housing with some long bolts, so no worries. This is the same clutch I used with this transmission before, so the disc splines on correctly. Before installing the pilot bushing, I checked its fit on the input shaft, perfect. The clutch disc is facing the right way, and the disc is centered. I do not have the clutch linkage fitted, I might bolt it on, gently depress the clutch, and see if that frees it up. Maybe the disc is slightly "off-center"??

That's it for now.

 

[AK-RWC]

Why are you running a bushing rather than a bearing?

Granted, I'm running a bushing in both my stick-CJs, but only because A) the CJ-7 has a WC T-5 bolted to a SBC, so a stock bearing won't work, and B) the CJ-8 has a Ford T-18 bolted to an AMC, so a stock bearing won't work. If I could run a real pilot bearing rather than the oilite bushing, I would.

 

[spankrjs]

Why are you running a bushing rather than a bearing?

Granted, I'm running a bushing in both my stick-CJs, but only because A) the CJ-7 has a WC T-5 bolted to a SBC, so a stock bearing won't work, and B) the CJ-8 has a Ford T-18 bolted to an AMC, so a stock bearing won't work. If I could run a real pilot bearing rather than the oilite bushing, I would.

Except for this current instance, I have never had a problem using pilot bushings, they have always lasted. I never liked the idea of a bearing in this location, there is no way to lube it, and if it fails, it could tear up the input shaft/crank bore I don't think I have ever ran a pilot bearing, or took apart a CJ that had one, even though the parts books call for a bearing and not a bushing

The bushing will self lubricate, and as long as the transmission front bearing is in good shape, this bushing is under a light load, mainly just centering the shaft

I guess because I have always ran bushings and never had a problem, no reason to change

 

[Cincyjeeprs]

Isn't the sintered bushing stock?
Never seen a bearing.

 

[Randyzzz]

Probably just the angle of the picture, but it looks like there is several degrees of angle difference between the bellhousing and the trans case. Wider gap at the top.

 

[AK-RWC]

Isn't the sintered bushing stock?
Never seen a bearing.

I pulled a bearing out of my '85 CJ-7, so I thought the bearing was stock. Google tells me that Mopar has a part number for a bearing, but it looks like a bushing was more often the case.

 

[spankrjs]

Isn't the sintered bushing stock?
Never seen a bearing.

I have only ever ran across bushings

 

[spankrjs]

Probably just the angle of the picture, but it looks like there is several degrees of angle difference between the bellhousing and the trans case. Wider gap at the top.

Yep, it is "down" a bit in the picture

 

[spankrjs]

I pulled a bearing out of my '85 CJ-7, so I thought the bearing was stock. Google tells me that Mopar has a part number for a bearing, but it looks like a bushing was more often the case.

NAPA listed a bearing as stock, the young kid had no idea what a pilot bushing was

Maybe the GM 4 cylinders came with pilot bearings

 

[spankrjs]

I got the T176 swap almost completed last night.

I used an old T5 input shaft (one of the many I now possess LOL) to re-center the clutch disc, it was NOT dead center, and then the T176/Dana 300 combo slid in fairly easy.

I instslled the shifters, started the Scrambler up, and the transmission was stuck in gear, would not come out of 2nd (the gear I placed it in while it was on the ground so that I could turn the mainshaft to align the clutch disc splines).

The clutch was working, but the transmission would not shift. I was scared the input shaft was seized on the pilot bushing, but since the clutch would stop the transmission from spinning, I was a bit confused.

After I let the engine run for a few minutes, with the clutch engaged, lube splashed up on to the shift rails and now the transmission shifts again. The transmission now seems to be working perfect again.

And how I left it.

I still need to bolt in the drive shafts, bolt down the floor plate, and install the shifter boot and shifter knobs to be 100% finished with this swap.

I am kind of curious if the lack of overdrive, coupled to driving slower, will equal the same MPG I was getting with the T5's overdrive and faster speeds.

That's it for now.

 

[scrambler228]

Hi been reading all the problems you have had with the t-5,,, I bought a t-5 a year ago for a swap/upgrade to replace my sr-4 and now not sure about going ahead with it.... now with that said i only have 31x1050 tires and i dont do any hi speed driving and now that i have the amc 20 disk/hub locks full floater almost finsihed in when i pull it behind the motor home
everything will be disconnected so should not have to worry too much about it....... since you have had a lot of practice rebuilding the t-5 ,,, have question for you..... as i said i got this
about a year ago,,,,, only thing i did when i rec it was kinda check the front input shaft by turning it and moving it around a bit to try to see if it had much play and as i turned the insput
shifted thu the 5 gears and rev,,,, it seems to go into each gear ok and just put it back on the shelf .... dont think i even checked the fluid level,,,,, this was a used t-5 with out being rebuilt with i think fair miles ,,, case from the outside looks good no cracks and does not look bad.....trying to make up my mine is i should have it rebuilt or should i just put it in and see
how it shifts???? or is there anything i can open up on the case to look at to help me check what shape it is in??? I have not ever worked on the insides of a trans.... can you tell me
what i need to do to open up the top or what i can do to check it out also i have read that it is normal to have some play (up down) with the input shaft,,, mine seems to have some
but not loose in and out or when turning it my hand..... thanks for anything you can tell me

 

[spankrjs]

Hi been reading all the problems you have had with the t-5,,, I bought a t-5 a year ago for a swap/upgrade to replace my sr-4 and now not sure about going ahead with it.... now with that said i only have 31x1050 tires and i dont do any hi speed driving and now that i have the amc 20 disk/hub locks full floater almost finsihed in when i pull it behind the motor home
everything will be disconnected so should not have to worry too much about it....... since you have had a lot of practice rebuilding the t-5 ,,, have question for you..... as i said i got this
about a year ago,,,,, only thing i did when i rec it was kinda check the front input shaft by turning it and moving it around a bit to try to see if it had much play and as i turned the insput
shifted thu the 5 gears and rev,,,, it seems to go into each gear ok and just put it back on the shelf .... dont think i even checked the fluid level,,,,, this was a used t-5 with out being rebuilt with i think fair miles ,,, case from the outside looks good no cracks and does not look bad.....trying to make up my mine is i should have it rebuilt or should i just put it in and see
how it shifts???? or is there anything i can open up on the case to look at to help me check what shape it is in??? I have not ever worked on the insides of a trans.... can you tell me
what i need to do to open up the top or what i can do to check it out also i have read that it is normal to have some play (up down) with the input shaft,,, mine seems to have some
but not loose in and out or when turning it my hand..... thanks for anything you can tell me

First off, I hate to be scaring people away from the T5's. In your application, I would like to think it would hold up

While I do not purposely "abuse" my transmissions or Scrambler, I do drive it, and I drive it hard For instance, while at the National in Kentucky this year, I was getting on it pretty good while going up a muddy/loose rock hill. It probably took about 15-20 minutes to get past this obstacle, and the whole time, the poor T5 was getting throttled pretty good. Last year in Michigan, while playing on the sand dunes, the 4:1 gears in the Dana 300 resulted in quite a bit 3,000+rpm's being sent through the poor T5 for two days. Plus, I have drove this Scrambler at high speeds (75-80mph) from Biloxi, MS to: Moab, UT, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, and all over AL-LA-MS and parts of Florida. I don't necessarily "beat" on them, but maybe they just wont hold up to my Scrambler/my driving

The input shaft SHOULD NOT pull in or out. If it does, rebuild it. Slight, very slight, up-down deflection of the input shaft is OK. How much is OK is hard to know without seeing it. It should not be much at all.

The only way to see inside the T5 - you have to take it apart. The way the top cover slides into the rear case does not lend itself to an easily accessible inside view. You will have to unbolt the rear half of the cases, then unbolt the top cover. Parts can fall out when you pull off the rear half of the case, but it is pretty simple to put it back together.

Personally, since the transmission is not in a vehicle, the hard part is done. I would rebuild it/have it rebuilt, just for piece of mind. Most "rebuild" will only consist of new bearings, seals, and blocking rings. If that's all your will need, wont be much money. If any gears or shafts are damaged, then it costs $$$$

For me and my Red Scrambler, the T5 is no longer an option For my stock green Scrambler, I like/plan on keeping the T5

 

[scrambler228]

Hi well that helps a lot.... what you do sure sounds like fun,,,, but dont think i will be doing much of that,,,, may go to some of those events someday to watch.... I tow the scrambler to
state parks/ camp grounds and then use it for getting around etc,,, maybe some trail driving .... the sr-4 even behind my sb chevy has been holding up so think i will either find someone
that knows how to rebuild the t-5 around here or have it checked out and then later this year or then spring put it in..... thanks

 

[Cincyjeeprs]

After 29 pages of this thread, let me just say that (although clearly you don't know how to keep a T5 alive) You sure do take pretty pichurs.

 

[wm69]

You have to use a different shifter on that Dana 300 to get it to work with the T176? I've got a T176 I want to swap in place of my T5. Have driveshafts, tunnel cover, boots, transmission, bellhousing, and tcase adapter. That should be everything I need, but I read somewhere that the Dana 300 shifters were different between T5 and T176 (something to do with clearance).

What about an automatic Dana 300 shifter? I'm going T176->TF999 in green Jeep, then the T176 currently in green Jeep will go into tan Jeep replacing the current T5.

 

[spankrjs]

Hi well that helps a lot.... what you do sure sounds like fun,,,, but dont think i will be doing much of that,,,, may go to some of those events someday to watch.... I tow the scrambler to
state parks/ camp grounds and then use it for getting around etc,,, maybe some trail driving .... the sr-4 even behind my sb chevy has been holding up so think i will either find someone
that knows how to rebuild the t-5 around here or have it checked out and then later this year or then spring put it in..... thanks

If you have kept a SR4 alive behind a SBC, then the T5 should live, too

After 29 pages of this thread, let me just say that (although clearly you don't know how to keep a T5 alive) You sure do take pretty pichurs.

Yep, it is open season on T5's around here's, no bag limit I think my current phone takes much better pictures then the old digital camera I used to use when I started this thread

You have to use a different shifter on that Dana 300 to get it to work with the T176? I've got a T176 I want to swap in place of my T5. Have driveshafts, tunnel cover, boots, transmission, bellhousing, and tcase adapter. That should be everything I need, but I read somewhere that the Dana 300 shifters were different between T5 and T176 (something to do with clearance).

What about an automatic Dana 300 shifter? I'm going T176->TF999 in green Jeep, then the T176 currently in green Jeep will go into tan Jeep replacing the current T5.

Yes, from the factory, the T176 equipped Jeeps have a different Dana 300 shifter. A stock T5 one wont work/fit right. A T5/auto Dana 300 shifter "might" work, maybe with bending, not sure

Jeep used all different types of shifters for the Dana 300 depending on transmission/year - I currently have the T176, T5, Auto, and an early version, possibly from an SR4, it is really tall

Unfortunately, I do not have any extra T176 Dana 300 shifter handles

 

[Cincyjeeprs]

You have to use a different shifter on that Dana 300 to get it to work with the T176? I've got a T176 I want to swap in place of my T5. Have driveshafts, tunnel cover, boots, transmission, bellhousing, and tcase adapter. That should be everything I need, but I read somewhere that the Dana 300 shifters were different between T5 and T176 (something to do with clearance).

What about an automatic Dana 300 shifter? I'm going T176->TF999 in green Jeep, then the T176 currently in green Jeep will go into tan Jeep replacing the current T5.

Smoke wrench is you friend for that. Are you considering doing the twin stick while you are at it? Might have to bend those a bit, too.