Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

[spankrjs]

Cleaning parts.





More parts!!!



Lining up the crank and camshaft sprockets before removal.



And that's where I stopped. This 4.0 procedure seems a bit different then the 4.2 procedure I performed a few weeks back. Oh well, that's it for now.

 

[barrys]

Those induction heaters are cool. My brother bought a miniductor before the cheap ones were available. Works very well, should almost be a standard tool when working on vehicles where rust is common.

 

[FLCJ8]

This 4.0 procedure seems a bit different then the 4.2 procedure I performed a few weeks back

Your posts got me to look into some of the differences in the 4.0.
What are you using for the relevant 4.0 procedures? (I noticed some interesting steps for the timing chain and the oil pan in the FSM.)

Is that a preload bolt (with a thrust pin) for the camshaft sprocket?
I have read (when looking into a stroker build) that was one of the areas that was different depending on the year of the 4.0.

 

[spankrjs]

Your posts got me to look into some of the differences in the 4.0.
What are you using for the relevant 4.0 procedures? (I noticed some interesting steps for the timing chain and the oil pan in the FSM.)

Is that a preload bolt (with a thrust pin) for the camshaft sprocket?
I have read (when looking into a stroker build) that was one of the areas that was different depending on the year of the 4.0.

Well, I thought it was different between 4.0 and 4.2, but looking in the Chilton manual I have (covers up to end of YJ Wranglers) the alignment mark line up is the same. I would like to see FSM for say a 1998 TJ Wrangler.

Yes, some type of preload pin/cam button.

 

[spankrjs]

Some more work today, just about finished with all the grunt work.

Timing mark alignment before removal, well, according to the YJ manual I have.



The aforementioned cam sprocket bolt, with thick washer, spring, and pin.



Reference picture for me, crank and cam positions. I just had to barely/gently pry to remove the crank gear. You remove and install both gears and chain as an assembly, lined up.



New vs old.



New crank sprocket part number.



Old crank sprocket.



New chain on the left, old chain on the right.



The new chain has the thinner pins and links, the one I removed was the double thicker links. I believe the new one is stronger then the old, could be wrong. Regardless, the chain and sprockets that were in here only lasted 61k miles. The sprockets teeth are different to account for the different style chains. This new one should work just fine.

With the timing marks aligned, rotor pointing at 12 o'clock. My #1 spark plug wire is at 6 o'clock, so 90 degrees out, if that matters.



And then a couple of hours of fun: running taps through all the threaded holes, removing gasket material, wiping off oil and gunk, all the preparation to start putting all this stuff back together.



For the record, much easier doing this on an engine stand!! But, it wasn't terrible.

 

[spankrjs]

Bottom of the block, oil pan flange clea ed and ready.





I reinstalled the passenger side motor mount when I determined I needed to pull the whole front of the engine apart, more stable work platform. So, once I jack the engine back up and remove the passenger side mount again, I have two holes and a little bit of block flange to clean.



Front of the engine all cleaned up.



Scraping off the oil pan flange, more fun!!



And another oil pan wash down.



When Hesco built this engine they used a cork oil.pan gasket, no idea why, the newer one piece rubber FelPro gaskets are great. This cork gasket was pretty dried out and crispy all around the oil pan.

One thing that concerns me a little bit: on the driver side, the factory mainfold/header I am using connects to the down pipe pretty close to the block. The cork gasket was intact here, just a little bit more crispy. Will have to keep an eye on the new oil pan gasket, make sure it doesn't melt from exhaust heat. Hopefully this is not a problem, pretty sure the 4.0 Wrangler exhaust systems are similar/worse.

Almost reassembly time, that's it for now.

 

[Belizeit]

I should have driven over and taken a look for myself with the beautiful weather today…..

 

[spankrjs]

I should have driven over and taken a look for myself with the beautiful weather today…..

After today looks like crap weather for the rest of the week

 

[FLCJ8]

I would like to see FSM for say a 1998 TJ Wrangler.

This is a screenshot from page 1180 of the '98 TJ FSM:



It can be found here:

https://wranglertjforum.com/attachments/1998-tj-service-manual-pdf.14033/

I'm not sure why this particular one has numbers for the sections (on the left) instead of descriptions. My '06 one is easier to navigate.
(The descriptions on the left are etj_9 expanded to show the sections)

It's interesting to me about the alignment tool for the TC cover seal, but mostly the information of fabricating guides for the oil pan/gasket.

 

[spankrjs]

This is a screenshot from page 1180 of the '98 TJ FSM:

View attachment 117149

It can be found here:

https://wranglertjforum.com/attachments/1998-tj-service-manual-pdf.14033/

I'm not sure why this particular one has numbers for the sections (on the left) instead of descriptions. My '06 one is easier to navigate.
(The descriptions on the left are etj_9 expanded to show the sections)

It's interesting to me about the alignment tool for the TC cover seal, but mostly the information of fabricating guides for the oil pan/gasket.

I actually ordered a "plastic/3D printed timing chain cover alignment too off eBay yesterday. I never used one before, but it does make sense. There is nothing to positively locate the timing chain cover to the engine block 100% accurately without the tool. I'm surprised there are not dowel pins? I have installed a few chains without the tool, but better safe than sorry.

On the oil pin dowels, the Felpro gasket comes with 4 plastic alignment bolts!!

 

[ag4ever]

I assume the pan gasket is silicone, if so that material is used for baking sheets in ovens.

I think it would be good to over 800 degrees F. But YMMV. I would hope the exhaust is not cooking the pan anywhere near that, and if so a heat shield might be in order.

 

[Belizeit]

We have 4 of those baking sheets. They work great. Raymond loves the cookies I baked on them. Just my

 

[spankrjs]

Installed the new timing set this morning, too much slack!! Installed another new timing set, same situation, 1/2" of slack out of the box.



This is a Cloyes 90385SB which is for a 1994-98 Jeep Wrangler 4.0. This is the newer style "inverted tooth, 64 pin" set. The set I pulled out was a roller type chain, 48 pins.

Old crank sprocket part#:



Old chain part#:



Old cam sprocket part# (hard to read from picture but it is stamped "S 688"):



These are Cloyes part numbers, but all from a set for a 91-93 Wrangler, or 87-93 Cherokee.

I had ordered another Cloyes set for a 1998, part# C3041, listed as a HD set. But, it is 64 pins. According to the 1998 FSM, anything with more than 48 pins will have too much slack.

I'm not an expert, but I believe all the 94 and up 4.0's used the newer style chains, but we're they 48 pins, no idea?

According to internet Jeep stroker experts you can interchange 4.2 and 4.0 timing sets (except for the 99 and up, they use a different cam sprocket).

I just know for a fact that this chain listed for this engine has too much slack. Unless these newer style chains have more slack compared to the older roller style chains?

I'm gonna order a Cloyes C3085 tomorrow, for a 1993 4.0, like what was on this engine. Still find it hard to believe that this original chain only lasted 60k miles? Maybe I'm just too hard on shit?

 

[FLCJ8]

Installed the new timing set this morning, too much slack!! Installed another new timing set, same situation, 1/2" of slack out of the box.

View attachment 117178

This is a Cloyes 90385SB which is for a 1994-98 Jeep Wrangler 4.0. This is the newer style "inverted tooth, 64 pin" set. The set I pulled out was a roller type chain, 48 pins.

Old crank sprocket part#:

View attachment 117179

Old chain part#:

View attachment 117180

Old cam sprocket part# (hard to read from picture but it is stamped "S 688"):

View attachment 117181

These are Cloyes part numbers, but all from a set for a 91-93 Wrangler, or 87-93 Cherokee.

I had ordered another Cloyes set for a 1998, part# C3041, listed as a HD set. But, it is 64 pins. According to the 1998 FSM, anything with more than 48 pins will have too much slack.

I'm not an expert, but I believe all the 94 and up 4.0's used the newer style chains, but we're they 48 pins, no idea?

According to internet Jeep stroker experts you can interchange 4.2 and 4.0 timing sets (except for the 99 and up, they use a different cam sprocket).

I just know for a fact that this chain listed for this engine has too much slack. Unless these newer style chains have more slack compared to the older roller style chains?

I'm gonna order a Cloyes C3085 tomorrow, for a 1993 4.0, like what was on this engine. Still find it hard to believe that this original chain only lasted 60k miles? Maybe I'm just too hard on shit?

Have you been able to confirm the build date of the original engine?
I'm not sure it is totally relevant anymore since it's been rebuilt.

 

[spankrjs]

Have you been able to confirm the build date of the original engine?
I'm not sure it is totally relevant anymore since it's been rebuilt.

View attachment 117182

I'll have to look and see if it has a build date on it. I purchased the engine from Hesco, the people who developed/sold/supported the Mopar MPI kits. This engine was all new components, according to them, that they assembled and used to test MPI computers on a dyno.

The second "silent" type timing set was a bit better than the first, for identical part numbers, but still way too much slack IMO.

I should get the earlier pre-'94 timing set today, same parts I removed, and see if they fit better.

The only thing that concerns me is people say you can swap these components either way and they work fine. But I know on this engine that is not the case.

If this new set does not fit, I'll have to contact Hesco and see what they say, or if they have any records or recollection of this engine. When I purchased it I was told it was all new components, not rebuilt or re-machined. Even a few line bores would not be giving me the excessive slack I am seeing? I know Cloyes manufacturers "undersize" chain sets (i.e. slightly bigger sprocket(s)) to take up the slack) for certain engines, not sure if they do for AMC inline 6's?

 

[FLCJ8]

I'll have to look and see if it has a build date on it. I purchased the engine from Hesco, the people who developed/sold/supported the Mopar MPI kits. This engine was all new components, according to them, that they assembled and used to test MPI computers on a dyno.

The second "silent" type timing set was a bit better than the first, for identical part numbers, but still way too much slack IMO.

I should get the earlier pre-'94 timing set today, same parts I removed, and see if they fit better.

The only thing that concerns me is people say you can swap these components either way and they work fine. But I know on this engine that is not the case.

If this new set does not fit, I'll have to contact Hesco and see what they say, or if they have any records or recollection of this engine. When I purchased it I was told it was all new components, not rebuilt or re-machined. Even a few line bores would not be giving me the excessive slack I am seeing? I know Cloyes manufacturers "undersize" chain sets (i.e. slightly bigger sprocket(s)) to take up the slack) for certain engines, not sure if they do for AMC inline 6's?

Yeah the original one on yours looks more like the OEM '87-'93 timing chain.
Will be interesting to see the difference in the slack between old and new.

 

[spankrjs]

So, parts update.

Picked up the C3085 kit from O'Reilly's late yesterday. Old box, beat up, unsure about a few things.

One good sign!!



Cam gear part number:



Crank shaft part number:



No part number on the chain, single black link:



And installed:



Maximum 1/4" deflection, so happy with that.

BUT........

A few things concern me about this particular set:

1) It was previously installed, note white paint
2) Looks like it is used, note wear to teeth and hub face of gears where they press against crank/camshaft
3) Chain not having a part number doesn't necessarily concern me, it looks new, suppliers do have running changes. I have noted some pictures of the Mopar set having this black link. In all probability Cloyes makes the Mopar set, probably OEM supplier.

But, I'm just not convinced this is all a new/matching set, I just can't install it. I will be running over to Pensacola, Florida, later today to pick up another new Cloyes C3085 from a different O'Reillys. Only about a 1.5 hour drive, so not terrible. By doing this, hopefully I can start putting this engine back together tonight, vs losing this whole weekend waiting on mail ordered parts. I am going to exchange this one for their new one, if it looks better.

I talked to Lee at Hesco, he recommended the Cloyes 9-3127 kit, which is a true double roller kit. He thought that was what was installed, but it was not. He also said that they do not install the rubber chain snubber. I don't think I am, either. All it can do is cause rubber debris to get scattered into the oil. I might just finish "machining" off the cast rubber snubber brackets from the original timing chain cover and reinstall it.


Regardless, I ordered one of these fancy Cloyes 9-3127 timing sets off Amazon, there was a "new in open box" one available for $130.00. Future spare. The interesting thing about the 9-3127 Cloyes set: it fits all CJ-7 4.2s 1976 - 1986, all Wrangler 4.2's, and all Wrangler 4.0's 1991-1998.

This tells me something was not correct with the "silent chain" kits I purchased, since it looks like any of these timing sets should be interchangeable over a wide year pattern?

The other interesting thing about the Cloyes 9-3127: you can have the manufacturer make them "undersize", .005 or .010, to better fit modified engines.

So, hopefully pick up a "better shape" C3085 kit today, get back to work on this engine this weekend. If not, waiting until Monday for my Amazon delivery.

That's it for now.

 

[ag4ever]

You know, as deep in this that you are, it would not be that much harder to just drop a 5.3 LS in there.

 

[spankrjs]

Wasted trip in the rain both ways, fuel, and about 5 hours time. Two people assured me they had it at their store before I drive two hours to get to Pensacola.

Get there, it's not there. "Oh, the driver from the hub store must have forgot it. It will be at hub store." Drive 20 minutes to hub store, smart ass kid say "of course we have it". Hour and half later, entire management team involved, nope, dont have it and never even checked like they said.

Amazingly I did not kill every MFer there. They assured me they could have one by Monday, which does me no good, and I sure as hell am not driving back to Pensacola to get one.

Supposedly the hub in Saraland/Mobile, Al, has a 9-3127. Of course it was too late for me to pick it up on the way back through because it is just a warehouse, not a storefront. It will be at my local O'Reilly tomorrow morning first thing, supposedly. The Pensacola manager told local manager what happened. We will see what happens, but I sure as hell am not paying $200 for it. At this point I might just return the used C3085 they sold me as new and be done with them all.

 

[spankrjs]

So, O'Reilly did right by me and traded out the new double roller for the used single roller they sold me at no additional cost, so I reckon best outcome that can be expected.



Two thinner chains compared to a stock chain, and I believe the chain rollers are on bearings, so a better set up compared to stock style?



The crank sprocket has three notches: 0, +4, and -4 degrees advance. I white dotted the zero degree option.



The three notches are slightly different shapes to correspond to the timing option chosen.





For my stock engine, and stock fuel injection/timing system, the factory option is the best choice.

And installed, fits perfectly, way better than any of the other sets.



Pricier than the other choices, but it fits perfectly, seems like a quality set up.

I installed the cam gear retaining bolt, with the little spring and pin. I put a little bit of blue loctite on this bolt, it had some on the original bolt.