Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
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Biloxi
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MS
The "Bad Stuff" update. My T176 transmission is kicking my a$$.




When the transmission was assembled, before it was installed in the vehicle, it would shift through all the gears just fine. Now it wont. I removed the cover, which required scraping the gasket off, which made a mess. I had to drain/flush the transmission to get all the gasket gunk out.



With the cover removed, I started up the motor. I pushed the clutch in and out to verify that it is working correctly. It is. I then shifted the transmission into each gear by hand, started the motor up, and made sure that all 4 forward gears and reverse work like they should. They all do. No bad noises or anything. When I put the cover back on, making sure the shift forks are lined up and engaging with the shift collars, I cant get it to work. One time I got it on, started it up, and was able to go through all 4 forward gears through several cycles, then nothing. Still haven't got it to catch reverse, either.

I have removed and reinstalled the cover about 20 times and i still can not get the transmission to shift. I spent all Friday night, Saturday and Saturday night messing with it. Got tired of looking at it and on Sunday painted some parts and made the body mount plates.

On Sunday afternoon I decided to pull apart the "spare" Scrambler that is in my yard. It also has a T176 transmission, which shift through all the gears just lovely. Note the red stain. I think this jeep has been sitting for so long that the gear oil has actually chemically broken down and turned to varnish. I pumped out the gear oil, it was a super dark red/maroon color with violet blue streaks, very psychedelic. Anyway, pic of it with cover removed.



Picture of mine. Note that everything is assembled identically.




Picture of the two shift covers side by side. They are also identical. They both take the same amount of force to manually shift the forks, so I don't think anything is the matter with mine.




I then thought that maybe i put the reverse sliding gear on backwards. I did not. Hard to see in the pics, but it is in there the right way. I verified this with the other transmission and the FSM, the collar on the reverse sliding gear is facing toward the front of the transmission (motor side) like it should. Note in the second pic how the collar on the reverse sliding gear lines up with the collar on the 1st/2nd shift hub.






So here is my reasoning/info/conclusions:

The clutch works correctly, verified by actually watching it disengage the mainshaft in the transmission.

I am 99% confident that the lower end of the transmission is assembled correctly. I can manually slide it into each gear and it works fine. I also compared mine to another transmission, everthing is assembled the same.

My shift housing is assembled correctly, is not binding up. Again, verified off of another transmission.


My thoughts:

I changed the synchronizers in the transmission, maybe they need to "wear" in a little to work correctly??? The last time I had a freshly rebuilt transmission i remember it was very difficult to shift at first, too???

Beside the synchronizers, the only other part i changed in the transmission was the 1st/2nd shift fork. The replacement lools very similar.

I am going to swap back in the old shift fork next to see if that fixes my issue. If not, my next step will be to pull back off the spare T176 shift housing, clean it up, and install it on my transmission. If that doesn't fix it, I will reassemble it and let it run for about 1/2 hour to see if maybe it needs to "wear" in.

The one difference I did note between my freshly rebuilt transmission and the used on in the yard, the used one shifts much easier compared to mine. Maybe my syncro assemblies just need to wear in????
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
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Biloxi
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MS
Had the same problem with Classic Enterprise to. They said no way it was like that. Never did call me back or offer to give me any kind of refund.
Man yours looks good. Wonder witch one of us will be finshed first :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: :thumbsup:
Judging from my above post, considering I am about to take back out my T176 and shoot it, I think you will be driving before me:rotfl::rotfl:

That sucks about classic:mad:. I didn't notice mine was manufactured wrong until it was already installed and painted. If I was going for a "restoration", i would have been pissed, because although my body mount plates "fix" the problem, they sure aren't stock:thumbsup: I definitely wasn't about to re-weld those pieces on the correct way after the body had been painted. i heard some people got refunds, I guess we aren't good enough:cheers:

I sent Classic pics showing the problem, never got a reply back one way or the other:(
 

Bad Karma

Captain Sarcasm
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Garden Hill, Ontario, Cana
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da
I think with your body mount problem and your transmission problem, you should cut your loses and scrap the Jeep... I'll come by when ever is good for you and haul it away for free. :fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:
 

spankrjs

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Biloxi
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MS
I think with your body mount problem and your transmission problem, you should cut your loses and scrap the Jeep... I'll come by when ever is good for you and haul it away for free. :fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:
If it had tires on it right now, i would push the whole thing out the garage and let you haul it off:thumbsup:

Body mounts aren't too big of a deal, fixed that problem:) Transmission, while frustrating, shouldn't be a too big deal either:fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:
 

bigwalton

Picture cravin' AK Postal nut
Staff member
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City
Dexter
State
MI
Can you just stick the other shifter on there quick with a couple bolts in it to compare the feel or do you have to seal it/fill it up to tell?

I'm no manual tranny guy, but I was waiting to read what happened when you swapped the other shifter on...
 

spankrjs

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Biloxi
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MS
Can you just stick the other shifter on there quick with a couple bolts in it to compare the feel or do you have to seal it/fill it up to tell?

I'm no manual tranny guy, but I was waiting to read what happened when you swapped the other shifter on...
Yes, I can bolt the other shift housing on easy enough. It will take longer to clean all the gunk off of it then it will to bolt it on:thumbsup: I have not been filling the transmission all the way up with gear oil (leaving about 1 liter inside of it) or sealing it up during my "tests". It doesn't leak much oil out the cover if all the bolts are bolted down, i figure half the gear oil will suffice for my quick tests, especially considering it is not under a "load", i.e no drive shafts, axles, tires, road resistance, etc. I have been making sure to dump oil on the synchronizer assemblies and shift tower parts before "testing":thumbsup:

I think my problem has to do with the synchronizer assemblies. They do operate like they should, they just take a little more hand pressure to slide back and forth compared to the other transmission. On the "spare" Scramblers transmission, when i first drop on the shifter housing, I can slide the whole housing forward, backward, and side to side, with the shift forks engaged on the collars very easily. On my rebuilt transmission I can't do that:confused: That's why I think they need to "wear" in some, maybe???

The other thing I thought about, since i don't have the back drive shaft hooked up, the output shaft is kind of spinning with the input shaft. Maybe i need to hook up the rear drive shaft, put oil in the rear axle, put tires on it, to give enough resistance to get the output shaft to not spin with the input shaft? The input/output shafts DO disengage when I clutch it, but I have to grab the rear output with my hand to keep it from turning. The rear output is not getting power when the clutch is pressed in or if the transmission is in neutral, but it still spins a little. Maybe that is throwing the synchronizers off????
 

One ton

Legacy Registered User
City
Fredericksburg
State
Va
I had trouble with my Dana 300 not shifting at all it would not stay in gear tell i hooked up me drive shaft, After that is was like night and day how easy it shifted :shrug::shrug: Might be it dont got a load on it :shrug:
 

Jeep Addict

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Baton Rouge
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La
Try checking the replacement shift fork. Sometimes one part sticks out too much and binds on another shift rod piece, effectively locking it up. :thumbsup: my:twocents:
 

MrBeep

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Dillsboro
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IN
No Worries

No problem, I'll give you a complete refund of full purchase price ( and work something out for the cost of parts you bought for it ). Just let me know when to pick it up. :thumbsup:

Sorry for the grief. I did have a problem with a replacement shift fork on a T-15. Measured both sides and one side was 1/16 thicker. i sanded it down to manch the other side and had no further problems.

Great work my friend. :thumbsup:

:wave:
 

Will_Texas

Legacy Registered User
City
Longview
State
TX
Since the lower housing is working correctly, and there were no previous problems before the rebuild logic would tell us that there is something wrong with the new parts you put in. New synchros take a few miles to wear in good, but that should not be the main cause of your problem. The transmission on my 44 mb is still a little tight from rebuild but it gets better with each drive. However, since the problems come and go, nobody can tell you for sure. I would investigate that new sift fork next, like Mr. Beep said.


Great job, don't feel too bad about the bugs, they are present with every major rebuild. Its a great feeling to finally get them worked out.:thumbsup:
 

spankrjs

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Biloxi
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MS
No problem, I'll give you a complete refund of full purchase price ( and work something out for the cost of parts you bought for it ). Just let me know when to pick it up. :thumbsup:

Sorry for the grief. I did have a problem with a replacement shift fork on a T-15. Measured both sides and one side was 1/16 thicker. i sanded it down to manch the other side and had no further problems.

Great work my friend. :thumbsup:

:wave:
Glad to see that you have been checking up on the status/progress on your old Scrambler:wave: I think you have to get in line behind Bad Karma for scrap rights, though:thumbsup:

Appreciate the compliments, too:cheers:

Ended up being the replacement shift fork, but it is off in several dimensions:mad:
 

spankrjs

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Since the lower housing is working correctly, and there were no previous problems before the rebuild logic would tell us that there is something wrong with the new parts you put in. New synchros take a few miles to wear in good, but that should not be the main cause of your problem. The transmission on my 44 mb is still a little tight from rebuild but it gets better with each drive. However, since the problems come and go, nobody can tell you for sure. I would investigate that new sift fork next, like Mr. Beep said.


Great job, don't feel too bad about the bugs, they are present with every major rebuild. Its a great feeling to finally get them worked out.:thumbsup:
Yep, should have went back to that lesson that I know all too well: "Go back and check out the last part you changed or messed with to find the source of the problem":thumbsup:

Shifts perfect now, feels great to have figured out this "bug":woot::woot:
 

spankrjs

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Biloxi
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MS
Went back last night and figured out my shifting issue. I went back first to double check the assembly on all the other components, mainly the synchronizers assemblies. Everything is assembled correctly and moves freely with just slight hand pressure. Next, I took apart the shifter housing and replaced the replacement fork with the original fork. Wouldn't you know the top cover slid right on, secured it with the two alignment bolts finger tight, and it shifts perfect:woot:

Now, time for my soapbox speech: BEWARE OF SO CALLED "REPALCEMENT" PARTS:mad: This particular replacement part is off in several important dimensions/aspects that it can not work as intended. All of my other drive line parts are either OE, Dana Spicer, Timken, or aftermarket (Warn, Centerforce and OX) and everything fits together and works perfectly like it should. This piece of "made in china" garbage should only be used for a paperweight. For now on, when i need to replace a part like this, I will search out a NOS piece or a used part that still is serviceable. I know it is ultimately my fault, i should have switched this part out sooner in my all of my testing, but i wasted 2 days fighting with this cr@p part. I am used to fighting with stuff, but for people new to working on vehicles, this can be very frustrating. If I wasn't so hard headed I probably would have thrown in the towel earlier and took the transmission to a shop that specializes in them to figure it out. Imagine the time that would have cost me let alone the dollar amount. All because a "replacement" part is in fact NOT a replacement part. Rant over.

Picture of the main problem area of the "replacement". Fork on the right is the factory fork. Fork on left is the "replacement". Note how much further it sticks out toward the pointer thing.



Another overall picture of the two side by side.



I marked the "replacement" fork and cut it down to match the factory fork.




Even after making the "replacement" match the factory fork in this dimension, it still would not work. It is too fat, too tall, and the forks are slightly off. Even if I would have machined it down in those areas, and modified the forks, it still would have been suspect. The area where the shifter goes would have been to shallow. I would have to remove the steel insert, also, to possibly get it to work. In the end, I didn't feel like wasting another 4 hours of my life on that cr@p "replacement" part.

The only reason I changed out the fork was to tighten up some "sloppiness" the shifter had. Turns out just the replacement shifter retainer spring and collar fixed this issue. Pic of the problem area that caused the sloppiness.





The slight wear on the factory part is not that bad after all, and it still functions perfectly. I am going to find a NOS or used fork and keep with me in case I have any problems later on. But for now, it works perfectly, shifts fine, and I have no more "sloppiness" . I can move forward, finally.
 
Last edited:

kimsanva

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Greenbackville
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VA
Now, time for my soapbox speech: BEWARE OF SO CALLED "REPALCEMENT" PARTS:mad: This particular replacement part is off in several important dimensions/aspects that it can not work as intended. <snip> I can move forward, finally.
I definitely feel your pain and hate it when that happens! Not just Jeeps but anywhere. When the light comes on and your realize that no matter what it syas on the box, it AIN'T RIGHT and AIN'T GONNA WORK! :banghead:

Glad to see you're back on the solid progress path!:cheers:
 

Randyzzz

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Glad you figured that out. I don't know how they can get away seling some of these aftermarket parts. That "piece" wouldn't have worked for anyone!
 

spankrjs

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Biloxi
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MS
I definitely feel your pain and hate it when that happens! Not just Jeeps but anywhere. When the light comes on and your realize that no matter what it syas on the box, it AIN'T RIGHT and AIN'T GONNA WORK! :banghead:

Glad to see you're back on the solid progress path!:cheers:
Feels great to clear that hurdle:cheers:
 
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