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Another Scrambler Purchase/Road Trip - UPDATE- BODY ON FRAME AGAIN

More backward progress:confused:

When I reassembled the T5 last night, I later found two "left over parts". These things are not supposed to have left over parts:rotfl: Totally my fault, getting in a hurry, not concentrating, etc.

Well, the easy part first. I forgot to install the o-ring on the reverse idler shaft. I believe this O-rings purpose is to keep the face of the reverse idler gear from rubbing on the face of one of the cluster gears teeth. If you don't use it, maybe it will result in some weird sounds. Anyway, it is supposed to be there, so I put it back in. Which entailed tearing the whole transmission back down, which isn't too bad, except for having to scrape/clean all the new sealant off:banghead:

Picture of the o-ring.

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And installed. Looking up from the bottom, you will see the roll pin, the aluminum boss the rod rides in, the black ring which is the o-ring, and then the gear.

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Ok, that is easy enough. The second left over part is this small BB. There is a large BB that is part of the shifter mechanism, which is installed. I do not know where this little BB goes. I took this transmission apart last September, so I do not recall where it was. It might have just fell in the case while it was sitting on the shelf?

But, and this has me concerned a little bit: The FSM and the Factory T5 rebuild book mention a roll pin being installed behind first gear, on the output shaft. I do not see how this is possible/necessary. I am thinking, probably wrong, that I used this BB in place of a roll pin, but I do not see how that would work??

In this picture the main shaft is resting with the front on the ground, output end sticking up. There is a factory installed press hub on this shaft that I did not remove, not sure if you can. Assembly, from the hub to the rear:

pressed on hub/synchronizer assembly CHECK
first gear blocking ring CHECK
first gear CHECK

The FSM then calls for installing a "first gear roll pin". You can see a hole in the main shaft for a roll pin, little BB is in the picture, too. Note how first gear is exactly where it has to be on the shaft.

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Any type of roll pin installed in this hole will not allow the first gear thrust washer to sit flush against back face of the gear, which it has to. In this picture, kind of blurry, the thrust washer is installed without a roll pin. It sits flush/perfect.

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And with the bearing installed, sitting exactly how/where it is supposed to be.

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So, I left it like this last night.

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I thought about it some more, and I kind of remember using a roll pin when I assembled one of these T5's, I think the one that is currently in the Scrambler. But, I also kind of remember that it has/had a funky first gear thrust washer, it had a larger OD and maybe a notch to clear the roll pin?? I do not remember??

I found this link this morning:

http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/media/pdfs_autogen/T-5_Service_Manual.pdf

This "non World Class T5" rebuild instructions DO NOT picture/mention the elusive "First Gear Roll Pin".

I am no engineer, obviously, but in this T5 I am currently rebuilding, I do not see how a roll pin can be used, unless I use a different thrust washer.

But, I also do not see why a roll pin is even needed. First gear is kept from sliding forward by the pressed on hub. The roll pin would keep it from walking backwards, BUT when you bolt the rear half of the transmission case on, you hold the rear bearing from walking back out. So, there is no where for first gear to go. Maybe the roll pin is only used to aid in assembly? When you install the main shaft in the case, you have to tilt it to the rear, and first gear will slide off, unless you hold it in place with your fingers.

If I can't think of why this roll pin is used, I am just going to put it back together without it. Looking at how it goes together, it would serve no purpose except as an aid when installing the main shaft in the transmission case.

I might pull the old transmission out first, and see how it went together, before reassembling this one. I bet that if it has a first gear roll pin installed it also has a funky first gear thrust washer installed, too.

Speaking of the broke transmission, I drained the ATF out of it last night, and got a few "thunks" in the drain pan. When I felt inside the drain hole, the entire bottom of the transmission is full of shrapnel. It should be some good carnage pictures.

That's it for now.
 
The link I posted confuses the issue more. It is trying to cover all T5's, note how it shows needle bearings under the first gear of the Jeep t5 - the jeep T5's don't have these bearings, at least none of the ones I have pulled apart do.

But, the little ball goes with a little spring and acts to lock the syncro assembly to the pressed on center hub. I never have done this before, might not be Jeep T5 applicable. I will have to take a look and see if my Jeep T5 parts are machined for this spring loaded ball contraption. I guess it keeps the syncro assembly from sliding too far forward/backward.

There is way too much conflicting information out there on the different non World Class T5's. I am going to pick the FSM as a guide, and stick to what it says:twocents:
 
If I wera betting person, my money would be on you my friend. Good luck. :wave:
 
If I wera betting person, my money would be on you my friend. Good luck. :wave:

I appreciate it my friend:cheers:

I hope I make it next week:fingerscrossed:

But here lately, feel kind of :shrug::banghead::confused::eek:

Could always be worse :thumbsup::wave:



I am going to "hedge" my bet and throw the T176 set up in the back, just in case ;)
 
Long night last night, about 3 more hours and it will be ready to test.

Some of the T5 manuals mention/show this little spring/ball. The Jeep FSM does not mention it, but the T5 in the back of the CA Scrambler had these parts in the box. I installed them on this T5, I have never used them before. I guess they act as a "stop" for the sliding gear, but since the sliding gear is not machined for a "ball stop", it probably does nothing.

The hole where the spring/ball goes.

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The little spring and ball.

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The inside of the sliding gear. But, besides the 3 sets of 3 notches for the little fingers, there is no other machining inside of this piece. You would think that there would be two little dimples machined in here for the ball to pop into, but there is nothing.

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And installing it.

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One mystery solved. I installed the little spring and ball, but I can't see how they do anything. If the sliding gear was machined, I could see how they could prevent the sliding gear from moving too far, but how everything is machined, I can't see how it does anything at all.

As for my "first gear roll pin" mystery, I left it out. I can't see how it does anything, except aid in assembly. When I take the blown up T5 apart I can see what I did there. But, how the main shaft goes together and is secured by the transmission case, I feel this roll pin is unnecessary. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But, since I have yet to munch first gear, I think it will be fine without it.

And the rebuilt T5 #1 ready for installation.

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Getting ready to pull the blown up T5 out.

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Blown up T5 on the ground.

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And finally, rebuilt T5/Dana 300 installed. Hip-Hip-Hooray!!!

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I still need to adjust clutch linkage, install transmission mount/skid plate, install drive shafts, hook up a few wires, and put the interior back together. Then, ready to test.

The broke one, I will try to autopsy this weekend.

IMAG1157_zpse8d6a4ef-1.jpg



That's it for now.
 
TEASE!!!

glad you got the other one in!

LOL, I knew you were going to say that:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::thumbsup:

I just hope the other one works:fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:


You don't know how bad I want to see the inside of the broke one:needpic:

But, once I got the old one out, decided to get the new one in first, I was so tired by the time I got the new one in (around midnight), I couldn't take the old one apart.:(

Don't worry, I will post up pics of the busted one.......................................on Monday:rotfl::rotfl:
 
All right, the pictures you have all been waiting for, blown up T5 guts!!!!

I took the transmission apart, and besides the busted input shaft gear/corresponding gear on the counter gear, no other damage.

A few pictures of the input gear. It still has a few teeth left.

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And the counter gear. There are no teeth left on the most forward gear.

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And here are all the teeth, I don't think they are supposed to be here.

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I haven't thoroughly cleaned/inspected the case, but I do not see a crack where they usually bust, the small piece of aluminum between the two front bearing bores. They will crack here, allow for a split second misalignement/jump, and self destruct. I do not see any damage.

IMAG1201_zps396bd0a8-1.jpg



It is pretty easy to see WHAT broke, but my bigger concern, and I have not figured it out yet, is WHY it broke??

Besides the two front gears, everything else looks perfect. Both front bearings are perfect, pilot bushing is perfect, main shaft is perfect, all other gears are perfect, nothing else fell apart, etc.

Maybe I haven't noticed it yet, but maybe something else broke off, got caught between the two gears, and caused all of this damage. I will have to go through the shrapnel in the bottom of the case to look for clues. I was hoping to see a cracked case, mystery solved, but I have not seen a crack yet.

When this transmission broke, I was just cruising at 75 mph. I was not shifting, on the gas hard, etc. It just blew up.

I finished installing the other T5, and so far, fingers crossed, it is working perfectly. I am happy about that, but now that I am on my 3rd T5 in less then 14,000 miles, I am have my reservations. Maybe my setup (33's/MPI on a stock 258) is too much for a T5?? I really didn't think so, but two broke transmissions might say otherwise??

Hopefully this T5 makes it too Kentucky and back with no problems. And maybe, it will never break, but I really don't have a warm fuzzy feeling inside right now with regards to its life expectancy.

Anyway, I will be bringing my complete T176 set up with me to Kentucky: transmission, bell housing, both drive shafts, both shifter handles, floor plate, and reverse light wiring harness.

I hope I don't have to use them.

Worst case, if the T5 blows up and I have to go back to a 4 speed, I just lose overdrive. I can still drive close to 65 mph in 4th at about 2300 RPM. Not the best solution, but it works, and I have more faith in the strength of the T176 vs the T5.

I am going to drive this T5 until it blows up. If/When it does, I will swap in my T176. And then, start looking for an NV3550.

That's it for now.
 
At least you now have a very good/expensive clutch alignment tool. Nothing better than an actual trans input shaft for the job.
 
SPARE TEETH! Stock up now! Coming to an eBay auction soon!
That pic of the teeth taking a bath in the ATF is awesome. You should have saved that action for Harlan. Coulda' been a contender for the Best Carnage award.
 
I say weld them back on and run it!!


Sent from the future via Skynet computer
 
SPARE TEETH! Stock up now! Coming to an eBay auction soon!
That pic of the teeth taking a bath in the ATF is awesome. You should have saved that action for Harlan. Coulda' been a contender for the Best Carnage award.

LOL on "eBay":thumbsup:

I hope I don't have this type of carnage in Kentucky:eek: But, if so, the trusty T176/all necessary components for the swap are already packed up in the back of the Scrambler:thumbsup:


I say weld them back on and run it!!


Sent from the future via Skynet computer

Hmmmmmmmmmm.....................................:D


The Scrambler is all packed up/as ready as its going to be for the trip to Kentucky, see y'all tomorrow night:fingerscrossed::thumbsup::wave:
 
This makes me glad I have an AX15 now. I'm glad I got a 180K miles out of the T5.
 
T5 Update:popcorn:

Well, the T5 made it to Kentucky, wheeled a few days, and made it home with no problems. Yeah:thumbsup:

On the way to Michigan, about 2 hours north of home, T5 #3 blew up. Boo :eek:

Same thing. Cruising around 75mph. This time, I heard a light "tink-tink" sound. Five minute later, the cool loud gear carnage sound.

And again, lost all gears except 4th. I was able to drive it home, again, so thankful for that.

I took all my camping stuff out of the Scrambler, loaded up the LJ Rubicon, went to Michigan, played on the dunes, had a blast.

When I got back from Michigan, I noticed this on the garage floor underneath the red Scrambler:

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I haven't looked yet, but I think this time the case cracked. So, at least a lot cooler carnage this time around:rotfl:


I am done with T5's in this Scrambler. They do not hold up to my slightly modified vehicle/driving style/habits. I have not really been too abusive with the T5's, they are just not going to cut it for me in this Scrambler/application.

I am going to swap back in my T176 4 speed for now. It works great, hope it holds up:fingerscrossed:

I will probably end up installing an AX15 in this Jeep in the near future. The 4 speed is OK, but for all the long distance driving I do, 33's/4.10's/and a 65 mph top speed are not going to cut it for long.

I am going to leave the T5 in my green Scrambler. It is stock (carb and little tires), so it should be fine. I might do a pre-emptive rebuild on it in the near future, it has close to 125,000 miles on it.

So for now, back to the T176.

I will post up lots of new carnage pictures once I pull this T5 out.

That's it for now.
 
This has probably been debated on here before as well, but my understanding is that the standard T-5 should always run gear oil (never ATF), whereas a World Class T-5 requires ATF (and should never have gear oil).
 
This has probably been debated on here before as well, but my understanding is that the standard T-5 should always run gear oil (never ATF), whereas a World Class T-5 requires ATF (and should never have gear oil).

Here we go again.:popcorn::popcorn:
My personal vote is for Synchromesh type goo; Amsoil or Pennzoil for non-WC T-5s.

Raymond's floor looks pretty red.
 
This has probably been debated on here before as well, but my understanding is that the standard T-5 should always run gear oil (never ATF), whereas a World Class T-5 requires ATF (and should never have gear oil).

World Class T5 = ATF, no questions asked:thumbsup:
Jeep NWC T5 = Nobody knows for sure, even Jeep:thumbsup:

I think gear oil is too thick for a NWC T5. These things have very tight oil passages, not like most standard transmissions. For example, the T176 has much bigger oiling holes/machined slots vs the T5.

I ran Mopar MT fluid in the first T5, viscocity between motor oil and gear oil. The front of the cluster gear failed, fluid smelled burnt.
I ran gear oil in one for a bit, way too thick, did not shift good at all, and that was down here where it is hot.

On all of my broken T5's, fluid is not the culprit. No blueing or burnt/scorched parts. No damaged bearings. Only broken input shafts/cluster gear teeth. All other parts are like new, no damage. It is like the case/rotating assemblies can not handle the incoming torque from the motor.

Part of my problem might be how I drive this Scrambler - I drive this thing 17+ hours straight at 75mph on the interstate quite frequently. I guess that is just too much stress on the case, gears spread, then BOOM??

I researched the oil thing, the FSM owner's manual says one thing, then says ATF, then calls for a specific AMC MT fluid, that is no longer made.

If I was burning fluid/had heat damaged parts, then I might question the fluid. But, I am having catastrophic gear/case failures. But, maybe the fluid choice is poor, but the first one broke using oil:shrug:
 
I got a t-177 in mine and love it.. Yes 177 lol

Yep, going back to something similar for now:thumbsup:

Here we go again.:popcorn::popcorn:
My personal vote is for Synchromesh type goo; Amsoil or Pennzoil for non-WC T-5s.

Raymond's floor looks pretty red.

Yep, my Scrambler is bleeding:rotfl:

The Mopar MT fluid I used is similar to the Syncromesh/Amsoil. In fact, they are approved equals for the Mopar stuff. This stuff burnt in the first T5. Smelled slightly burned, discolored, no "oily feel" left, felt like water:shrug:

On the NWC T5, there is not a 100% clear cut factory approved fluid, EXCEPT the AMC stuff, which Penzoil says there Synromesh is an equal, which I failed in the first T5:(
 
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