spankrjs's Biloxi, MS '83 Scrambler

[spankrjs]

Another hour tonight, just about ready to pull: both shifter, transmission/Dana 300 to skid plate bolts, six frame bolts loosened up, clutch linkage and boot, reverse light and 4wd light harness plugs disconnected.



For my future reference, skid plate to frame bolt locations:



That's it for now!!

 

[spankrjs]

Dreary Friday afternoon, raining this weekend, good time to stay in the garage.

Using a large transmission jack, a wood adapter plate I made for the AX15, works with the T5, too. Bolt the transmission to the plate, plate to the jack. The wood plate spaces the Dana 300 up and over the adjustment knobs, and holds the T5/Dana 300 firmly in place.



Wear marks on the face of the of the TB where it contacts the pressure plate fingers. Not bad, normal, minor grease seepage out the front face.



Abnormal grease seepage out the rear of the TB, especially since it only has around 5k miles on it.



Three throw out bearings, left to right:

1) the one I removed out of the Jeep, came with the NAPA/Luk clutch kit
2) SKF TB
3) SKF "self aligning" TB



Note size difference between Luk/"regular" SKF TB's:



Note size difference between "regular" SKF and "self aligning" SKF TB's:



On the "self aligning" bearing, lateral play, kind of excessive? Hard to picture, but it is made this way:



For the record, for whatever reason I installed a SKF self aligning bearing in my red Scrambler a few years ago, no issues. Never paid attention, just stuck it in there. BUT, I have had 4 of these bearings in my hands recently, 3 out of the 4 sucked. The first two from NAPA had way too much play, would squeak and tick turning by hand. No way I would install them. Got one from eBay, same thing, way too loose feeling IMO. I received a 3rd one from NAPA today, it feels good.

For the record, the TB I removed is probably OK. On the self aligning TB, someone smart is going to have to explain it to me??? Pressure plate bolts to flywheel, does not move laterally. TB rides on the input shaft bearing retainer that is bolted to the face of the transmission, it does not move laterally. So what is purpose of this SA feature on a stock Jeep??? Either bearing clips to the release fork, so if any lateral play is needed the bearing can move here. Not sure I want the bearing having excessive play around its collar that rides on the bearing retainer???

The face of the SA TB that contacts the pressure plate finger has a chamfered edge, the non SA does not. BUT, the OD of both bearings is larger then the ID of the pressure plate fingers, making this a moot point??

So, moving on from release bearings......

Snout of input shaft, not good. More on this later, not chewed up or damaged, but big clue.



Looking through bell housing and clutch assembly at the pilot bushing, note debris.



Had a spare new pilot bushing, found a socket that was close to its ID, then wrapped with tape to make it a snug fit. Couple of extensions and I have an "existing pilot bushing ID checker without removing the bell housing or clutch even though I know in my heart of hearts the existing pilot bushing is FUBAR":

 

[spankrjs]

And confirmed, pilot bushing ruined.



Now a word about pilot bushings. What you want is an Oilite bushing. One of the below two is Oilite. One is very metallic, sticks to a magnet. The other is porous, slippery, and if you warm it up with a lighter you can watch it "sweat" little oil drops out. This is what you want.





Kind of a dirty trick, both boxes have the same part number, both very different. One is good, one is shit for this application.

So, pull starter, clutch linkage, bell housing and clutch to access pilot bushing.



Ruined pilot bushing, bone dry, wore out, lots of metallic debris/powder inside crank cavity.



Now, in the past I would pack grease/bread to force out old pilot bushings, slow, messy, and sucks. I could also drill them at two points, split with chisel, works but slow. So, I finally bought this tool. It can work, but it is crap out of the box.



Two important notes about this tool:

1) The little jaw faces that contact the face of the bushing are round and angled wrong out of the box. 30 minutes with a Dremel and file, now the jaw faces will grip the face of the bushing like they should. Hard to explain, but if you buy this tool play around with a spare bushing to see how to reshape the finger tips.



2) When you tighten the jack screw into the puller body with the little twist handle, where my finger is pointing, hand pressure will not be enough. Slide a small pipe on the little bar and crank it like you are living, hard!!!!!!!

 

[spankrjs]

Luk bushing and debris, ferrous for sure, mui no bueno:







A little life lesson/rule of thumb: " If the magnet sticks, don't install that shit"!!!



Unfortunately for me, I learned this lesson the hard way on my red Scrambler's 4.0/AX15. I had been using needle bearings but the grease would dry out and the little bearing would scream. I couldn't find an OEM automotive Oiite bushing at the parts houses. So, a trip to a local bearing supplier had me hooked up with real Oilite bar stock with the OD/ID I needed for that application. Cut the bar stock to length with a junior hack saw, been working beautifully for a few years now.

Also unfortunately for me, I had installed the green Scramblers Luk POS pilot bushing before I learned this life lesson.

No use crying about it, lesson learned. Luckily I did have one real Oilite bushing for this application in my parts stash, so rock on!!

Oiled a piece of fine grit sandpaper and polished out the snout of the input shaft. No grooves or holes or wear, just baked on crap bushing debris. Polished it up, not even 1 thousandths smaller OD at the front compared to the back of the snout. IF the tip was chewed up, you could probably install a 4.0 style bearing collar in the outer step of the crank to move the bearing surface to the rear of the input shaft. No need for that here:



Using a small race driver, I drove in the new pilot bushing. Note oil around the edge. That is from the Oilite bushing. When you install it, it compresses some, lube comes out.



Another note: with the bushing uninstalled it will easily slide on the input shaft, a tiny amount of play. Once the bushing is installed, the ID shrinks up. The input shaft will push in by hand, but it is a close fit. When you pull it back out it makes a vacuum/suction sound. The shaft turns freely in the bushing, but it is a snug fit.



This is the Oilite bushing I bought from Rock Auto 5 years ago when I bought the Luk clutch kit. I did not install it then, I used the Luk supplied bushing. My bad.



I bought a lot of three of these off eBay for $10. Same part number, but metallic, stick to magnet like steel. Useless in this application.



I will take one of the ferrous bushing with me to the bearing house next time I go to Mobile, Alabama, and pick up some bar stock. For now on I am going to have to make my own Oilite bushings. No parts stores carry them, maybe RockAuto. No way of knowing until you order/receive them. Maybe McMaster Carr??

So, lesson learned. Autozone tools out of the box suck, Luk pilot bushings and release bearings suck monkey ballz.

Wil work on it some more tomorrow before football, need to figure out what release bearing to use.

That's it for now!!!

 

[Belizeit]

Nice job as always ! Great explanation also.

 

[FLCJ8]

Three throw out bearings, left to right:

1) the one I removed out of the Jeep, came with the NAPA/Luk clutch kit

Does this one have plastic parts to it?

I remember when looking for new clutch pieces for my LJR that everyone loved the Luk kit but not the TOB, ended up buying the all steel TOB separately per recommendations.

 

[spankrjs]

Does this one have plastic parts to it?

I remember when looking for new clutch pieces for my LJR that everyone loved the Luk kit but not the TOB, ended up buying the all steel TOB separately per recommendations.

No, all steel.

 

[spankrjs]

More information and some confusion.

Back in the day ('90's) on my first CJ clutch jobs, never saw this "pilot bushing wick", never used one, no issues:



Also from the 1982/83 FSM:



And from the 1985 FSM:



Probably not a bad idea, but what to use for a lubricating wick: Foam, sponge, cloth of some type???

No idea, so some thoughts on common items:



Maybe candle wick material, but course and not conducive to the shape of the crank cavity?



Maybe the foam off of a small engine air filter? Maybe, but they tend to fall apart with time/heat?



Maybe a common sponge, but they tend to get crumbly over time/heat?



I had this bandage roll, way to porous/non-absorbent?



What about a $.50 cent piece of felt from Michaels Craft store? Cheap, available in multiple colors, absorbent, oil or heat should not affect it?



Unless someone has a NOS pilot bushing oil wick, I think I will try this felt and report back in 5-10 years. It's cheap, absorbent, should stand up to heat and oil, it will hold a lot of oil. I think I will soak a piece of this in some motor oil, ring out the excess, cram it in the hole. Might not do anything, I don't believe it can hurt anything either??

 

[spankrjs]

More pilot bushing confusion.

The bushing I pulled out is bone dry, gets crumbly with heat:



One of the more metallic bushings, some oil wil come out with heat, but not much:





A few examples of real Oilite bushings, for 4.0/AX15. Very porous, shipped in plastic, always feel wet with lubricant:





A real Oilite next to a metallic version that sticks to a magnet:



So, I decided to start over. The Oilite bushing I previously installed was not soaked in oil prior to installation? Is this necessary? Wouldn't hurt? So soaking the last Oilite bushing I had for this application, was going to install tomorrow. Next to the bushing is a piece of oil soaked felt, another experiment:



The bushing soaking in oil is this, and this is my issue:



It is an old Crown part, usually I would be leary, but it doesn't stick to a magnet, feels oily, and is porous. My issue is dimensions.

The Crown 3236726, which matches a Jeep/Mopar part number, has the following dimensions:

ID: .601
OD: 1.061
Depth: .627

The bushing I have been using, National PB79 which is identical to the Luk bushing, and also matches RAM BU79, Timken PB79, and BCA Bearing NBPB79:

ID: .592
OD: .1.057
Depth: .627

So, two different bushings for the same application? The OD difference does not concern me, the .004 extra OD should still fit. The ID is interesting.

The PB79 fits the T5 snout perfect, if a tiny hair loose, uninstalled. Once installed, pretty snug on T5 input shaft. I wonder what the slightly larger ID would feel like? Might have to install it to see?

I can measure, but does the T176 bushing bearing surface have a slightly larger OD compared to a T4/T5? Both bushings fit a 258, 81-86. No mention of transmission model.

My concern is the previous PB79 sized bushing is dried out. Was this from lack of lube or too tight initial fit to the input shaft?

More research needed, any information appreciated.

 

[Chamba]

In old Toyotas those wicks are 1/8" thick canvas soaked in paraffin or oil.

 

[bigwalton]

I wonder if it's possible that the wick would have saved the metallic bearings?

 

[spankrjs]

I wonder if it's possible that the wick would have saved the metallic bearings?

Maybe so?? I'm not an expert, maybe these CJ's originally came with a more metallic bushing requiring this source of lubrication, hence the FSM recommendation?

Interesting discovery below.....

 

[spankrjs]

Note the picture below, compared to one of the ones above right after I installed the pilot bushing:



This is a real Oilite bushing that I did not soak in oil. It had a ring of oil around the perimeter when I installed it. I thought of pulling it out and installing another one that I soaked in oil, but note the lubricant wicking out of it just sitting there!!!!


Hard to see, but I left an input shaft stuck into the bushing overnight. The bearing surface is coated in lubricant:



Easier to see, a quick touch of the input shaft tip with my finger:



Pretty sure I am going to leave this bushing installed. I can't get my caliper inside the bushing with the flywheel installed, not going to pull the flywheel off just to mic the ID of the installed pilot bushing. But, the input shaft slips into the bushing by hand, and turns smoothly. I am going to "assume" I have the "internet told me 2-3 thousandths fit between bushing/shaft" is correct, and is what I have.

With an Oilite bushing I wonder if the "oil wick" is needed?

In the past, when I installed an Oilite bushing in the crankshaft, I usually immediately installed the clutch/transmission/etc and got on with my business. First time I left one exposed, interesting how just the pressure of it fit into the crankshaft bore makes it weep lubricant.

I am leaning toward just bolting everything up just like it is and see what happens.

Besides, I now have three new spare PB79 Oilite bushings in the garage, pretty good at pulling out T5's

 

[wm69]

And confirmed, pilot bushing ruined.

View attachment 107759

Now a word about pilot bushings. What you want is an Oilite bushing. One of the below two is Oilite. One is very metallic, sticks to a magnet. The other is porous, slippery, and if you warm it up with a lighter you can watch it "sweat" little oil drops out. This is what you want.

View attachment 107760

View attachment 107761

Kind of a dirty trick, both boxes have the same part number, both very different. One is good, one is shit for this application.

So, pull starter, clutch linkage, bell housing and clutch to access pilot bushing.

View attachment 107762

Ruined pilot bushing, bone dry, wore out, lots of metallic debris/powder inside crank cavity.

View attachment 107763

Now, in the past I would pack grease/bread to force out old pilot bushings, slow, messy, and sucks. I could also drill them at two points, split with chisel, works but slow. So, I finally bought this tool. It can work, but it is crap out of the box.

View attachment 107764

Two important notes about this tool:

1) The little jaw faces that contact the face of the bushing are round and angled wrong out of the box. 30 minutes with a Dremel and file, now the jaw faces will grip the face of the bushing like they should. Hard to explain, but if you buy this tool play around with a spare bushing to see how to reshape the finger tips.

View attachment 107766

2) When you tighten the jack screw into the puller body with the little twist handle, where my finger is pointing, hand pressure will not be enough. Slide a small pipe on the little bar and crank it like you are living, hard!!!!!!!

View attachment 107765

Looks like that might almost work getting a pinion bearing out of a Honda ATV rear diff, LOL. Would have to dump the bearing rollers and try to pull on the inner lip though, since no void behind those bearings.

 

[wm69]

We live in an older house (1947) and my parents are in the house my great-grandparents built in 1919. Both houses have natural gas fired boilers with radiators for heat. We have Bell and Gossett circulation pumps on these systems, and I have to oil the wicks on these circulation pumps about once a month during the winter (probably a bit excessive, but easy to remember to do it on the 1st of each month).

Bell and Gossett sells wicks for their circ pumps. Pretty dang pricey for what they are, but they're smaller/thinner, and are designed as an oil wick.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bell-Gossett-118395-Oil-Wick-Set?utm_source=bingad&utm_medium=shopping&msclkid=190d331de3e01ef9a73450cddd0d201a

 

[spankrjs]

Been piddling with this one a little bit each night after work. Cleaned all the bolts, chased all the threads, installed the clutch and torqued the pressure plate bolts. I ended up cramming in my little wool sample wick behind the pilot bushing, what the hell.

I decided to use the SKF N1444 release bearing as opposed to the self centering version. No real reason, but it felt/looked beefier. I put a call into SKF, talked to customer service, they were supposed to call me back after talking to engineering about this application, never heard back from them. I have been running the N1444SA in my red Scrambler for two years now with no issue.



My biggest tip, whichever bearing you choose, make sure it is good one. It took me 5 N1444SA's before I got one good one. Parts people wanted to argue with me some about this, but 4 of these bearings had way too much play, clicked, or felt rough. When I put them on the spot once I finally got a good bearing, and asked if they would install one of the others in their vehicle, they shut up.

I have pulled and installed way too many Jeep transmissions in my time, especially T5's!!!! Besides the big transmission jack, the other secret weapon are these two simple home made tools:



I cut the heads off of two bolts to make dowel/alignment pins. Screw them in just a few threads, get the transmission lined/angled up correctly, easy slide in. Make sure they are not too long so that you can get them to clear the transmission case when you go to pull them!!! Would suck to have to slide the transmission back out to remove them!!!



And of course, if you have ever had to reinstall a transmission, this is what you want to see, slid in all the way, lined up, ready for the bolts. Hard part is over.



Should be able to knock out the rest of the reassembly work in the morning, then a test drive

 

[mhinchliffe]

How about felt furniture pads as a material for the wick? Or even Carhartt "duck" fabric?

 

[Chamba]

That duck fabric is really similar to what I remember the old Toyota stick being like. Good idea.

 

[spankrjs]

How about felt furniture pads as a material for the wick? Or even Carhartt "duck" fabric?

I looked at those but all the ones I saw had self adhesive backing. The piece of felt from the craft store was $.50 so it appealed to my thrifty side

 

[spankrjs]

Just a few quick notes.

The T5 doesn't use gaskets anywhere, just RTV. Previously I used some Permatex Gray gear oil RTV, which by the way worked wonderfully. I had to pry the shifter off of the shift housing!!!

Not wanting to wait 24 hours for RTV to cure, I purchased/tried a tube of this:





One other note: The Royal Purple 75 weight gear oil I just installed was leaking out of the drain plug and a little bit was weeping out of the front countershaft bearing to case interference fit. Synthetic fluids and 1980's sealing technology not playing nice together? Who knows, but the Pennzoil Synchromesh and the Valvoline MTF did NOT leak. So, filled the T5 back up with the Valvoline stuff. Now I only need to keep one type of transmission fluid in stock for my T5's and AX15.



Finished up the transmission/drive line/everything else work by early afternoon, pushed the Scrambler outside and fired it up:



Took it on a 2.5 hour long test drive, no complaints. Lots of up shifts, down shifts, easy driving, hard driving, no issues so far. I even sat at red lights with the clutch pedal down (something I never do) with no issues. The little bit of notchy feel to the shifting is gone. No noises. So, hopefully the crappy steel/non-Oilite pilot bushing was the only problem

A lot of work for a $5.00 part, but necessary. For now on I will check every pilot bushing with a magnet, I promise, lesson learned

That's it for now