'Mater - '77 Cherokee S 4-door

jeepdreamer

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Colorado Springs
State
CO
#41
I believe somewhere around the mid 90s, many of the bread trucks got retrofitted with the 4bt and usually a T19 2wd 4speed. I would also wager a guess that most of those have long since been snatched up. Its so hard to find a decent deal now days, especially in auction land, where a little guy doesn't get stomped all over by some huge pocket consortium. Of the few things I've been trying for on GOV liquid, most were shot far out of anything close to my price range almost instantly. And I don't know to many folks that can just drop in excess of 10k on a non operational military turd mobile all out of their own pocket. :(
Good luck BW. 4BTswaps.com is the place to start I think. :)
 

Polarfire

Jeep Aficionado
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Columbia
State
MO
#42
4BT's while cool and all is not what I would want for a daily driver. I went and looked at a Grand Wagoneer that had a 4BT swapped in that a guy had listed for sale for $10k. He did a nice job on the swap but it was WAY too loud for me for something I would use as a daily driver. I used to have a Dodge 2500 24v Cummins truck and I thought that was loud and the 4BT was much louder then that! If it where me, I would just look at a Chevy 5.3 swap. Just my :twocents:
 

MrBeep

CJ-8 Vendor Supporter
SOA Member
CJ-8.com Vendor
City
Dillsboro
State
IN
#44
Dang Eric! I bought a Crew Cab dually with 42K on it Thursday. Sweet running 454 for $1750. Sold it this afternoon. That would have been a cheap sweet ride. :wave:
 

jeepdreamer

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Colorado Springs
State
CO
#45
I'm gonna stick with the diesel suggestion PF. As the Waggy is pretty heavy and not the most aerodynamic thing out there... the best way to eek out more MPGs is going to be diesel. Plus it probably already has pretty conservative gearing in the diffs so you may not even have to do a gear swap. And while that's almost a requirement for adding big tires to a gasser... a diesel will actually be happier with taller gears if you keep the motor RPMs down but in their sweet spot.
As for a loud motor...*mumph* There are ways to add sound deadening to keep the interior noises very livable. Not sure what the one you looked at had done, if anything?
Here's a random YouTube vid of one in a waggy. I can see in the vid that nothing was done to the motor side of the firewall and the hood insulation is missing. If you smartly apply sound deadener to those and have a little done to the interior side as well... you'll be more than happy I think.

http://youtu.be/mFVfGD4NsfY
 

Bad Karma

Captain Sarcasm
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Garden Hill, Ontario, Cana
State
da
#47
I love diesel... but I too would go with the Chevy 5.3L.
I just dont see a diesel swap that will net you the power and torque of the 5.3L for the same money. (yes I know diesels CAN make insane torque)

The 4BT is a good candidate, but in the low 100 HP, 260ish ft/lbs just doesnt seem worth it to me.
The OM617 is a killer engine. but again, sameish power as a I6 258, not worth it again.

The Chevy swap is EASY and its easy to get all the parts you need.

These are the reasons my Scrambler has a 5.3L in it and not a diesel.

In the end it comes down to what you want.
 

jeepdreamer

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Colorado Springs
State
CO
#48
I love diesel... but I too would go with the Chevy 5.3L.
I just dont see a diesel swap that will net you the power and torque of the 5.3L for the same money. (yes I know diesels CAN make insane torque)

The 4BT is a good candidate, but in the low 100 HP, 260ish ft/lbs just doesnt seem worth it to me.
The OM617 is a killer engine. but again, sameish power as a I6 258, not worth it again.

The Chevy swap is EASY and its easy to get all the parts you need.

These are the reasons my Scrambler has a 5.3L in it and not a diesel.

In the end it comes down to what you want.
I understand your point but I think your off on the power aspect. Your 5.3 needs go pedal to get in the grunt band where the diesel pretty much idles torque. And while I can understand the thought that the horsepower is not there... so? Its kinda apples and hand grenades for comparison. Diesels, how they move you, what they do are a different animal from our gas motors. That's were so many get all hung up too. You see a diesel that has double digit HP numbers and laugh and write it off. Then you happen to see the 4-6oo ft lbs tq numbers and say dayum. Just the way it is. You have to rethink your driving a bit to go with the black smoke option, sure. But building from almost nothing does that make much difference? If you were to plan out your build well, hunt down good deals on your big ticket parts... everything else is just install. We all work pretty cheap for ourselves don't we? :)
So while I can see what your getting at and agree with the "to each their own" ideal... I again will favor diesel. How the 5.3 does gas mileage wise pulling a trailer through the mountains after it hits 300k miles on it... doubt it will be as thrifty. *shrugs*
Sorry all... I'm just excited about diesel. :)
 

Bad Karma

Captain Sarcasm
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Garden Hill, Ontario, Cana
State
da
#49
i'd like to see 400-600 ft/lbs out of a 4BT or OM617 and it still be realistic for street driving. Other diesels, yes, but not the ones we're talking about in this thread... (which we have kind of really hijacked)
as for the 5.3L pulling trailers at 300k, never gonna happen. My 5.3L will never see 300k. My 5.3L currently has 117,000km and I maybe put on 5000km a year on it, so by my math it will take 70+ years to get to 300k miles. :crazy: I dont think BWs FSJ will ever see that kind of high mileage either. I'm sure it will be parked in the winter since it would be a pile of rust after spending a couple years in Michigan winters

trust me. I was on the diesel swap band wagon for a LONG time. I am a diesel junky. It just didnt make sense to me. swap in a OM617 (which is what i truely wanted)... an engine from the 80s. Yes they are bombproof and last for a billion miles. But in the end you are still swapping in an old engine. Yes you can rebuild but thats not cheap.
swap in a 4bt, too frigen heavy... 750ish lbs. (5.3L is 520ish). Sameish power as a 258/4.0L.

If you are swapping a diesel into a Jeep for fuel economy, you shouldnt be driving a Jeep. Why spend a sh!t ton of money on an engine swap to save money at the pump? It will take you YEARS to make your money back in fuel mileage savings.

Best mileage I have gotten with my 5.3L in my Jeep is 16mpg. Now before you say, "thats horrible", consider this. My foot is made of lead and thats on the highway averaging 130kph (80mph), in a 5200lb vehicle with the aerodynamics of a brick with 37" tires. I could get WAAAAAY better mileage if I drove like an old lady.
My bone stock 2008 VW Rabbit (not diesel unfortunately) on the same stretch of highway, same speeds, gets on average 22mpg.

For the amount of money I have in my swap (would have been about the same if I did the OM617 swap I originally planned) I have a low mileage, reliable engine with almost 400HP and close to that in torque, that gets decent mileage for what the engine is in.

As for changing driving style for diesel. No thanks. My driving style remains constant for what ever I drive. (diesel or gas) And lets be honest, we all drive our Jeeps because they are fun. Go drive a diesel Jeep, then come and drive my Jeep and see which one puts a bigger smile on your face. :smokin:

As much as I love diesel, there is no diesel engine (reasonably priced) that I will swap into my Jeep.

this is probably the longest post without pictures that I have ever posted... :wave:
 

bigwalton

Picture cravin' AK Postal nut
Staff member
SOA Member
City
Dexter
State
MI
#50
I REALLY like both ideas, the GM v8 was my first thought before I even posted. Mike and Randy's swaps were inspiring and that's what I expected. The diesel comment Kate made blew me away and set my mind reeling on the 4BT. I'm the one that asked the engine question, so there's no "hijack" here and I appreciate all the comments.

There's some videos of 4bt swaps online that made me just completely drool, but I think I need to reign in the excitement and realize that the most practical option for the $$$ is just to go ahead and drop in Toby's 360. There can be a lot of road trips on the money either swap would have cost and I really don't need to be spending major coin up front on this thing anyway. I'm sure there'll be plenty to spend on as it is just on the basics. Rock Auto and BJ's Offroad (I love that I can give them more business, great company from all that I've seen with the GW and the axles in the Postal) are going to love me :D

In other news, working on the retrieval. The seller's going to try to swap on the tow bar setup tonight so hopefully I can get it this weekend (don't want to drag it home in the dark, even on backroads).

I've cleared out space in the garage for it next to the Postal. Ideally I'd have gotten the postal into storage somewhere before the salt hit and use it's spot, but now the LJ is going to sit in the snow in the driveway all winter :eek:

Still can't wait, been hard to sleep since buying it...
 

Bad Karma

Captain Sarcasm
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
City
Garden Hill, Ontario, Cana
State
da
#51
In other news, working on the retrieval. The seller's going to try to swap on the tow bar setup tonight so hopefully I can get it this weekend (don't want to drag it home in the dark, even on backroads).
you dont have AAA? Slap some plates on it and call in a tow! Thats how we got the Bug home!
 

spankrjs

Scrambler Junkie
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
SOA Member
City
Biloxi
State
MS
#53
I agree with everything "Bad Karma" said in regards to the diesel vs. gas pros/cons/mileage/cost/fun/etc.:thumbsup:

That being said, I will go out on a limb here - What about a GM factory turbocharged equipped 6.5 diesel:shrug:

Before I get crucified, let me explain. We have a 97 1 ton Chevy diesel at work. It has this engine in it. It gets decent mileage (don't know actual numbers, but would be better then a 360). It is also a very quiet, smooth running engine. Besides the glow plug light, it drives very similar to a gas engine, i.e. throttle feel, torque curve, etc. The only issue we have had with this truck is the "injector pump control module". GM located this delicate electronic component at the front of the motor, between the heads, were engine heat cooks them until they fail. We installed a "relocation kit" for this component, problem solved.

You might be able to snag one of these motors fairly cheap. They are also about the same size/weight as a SBC.

I know these motors don't have the raw power numbers of a power stroke/cummins, but we have filled the flat bed of this truck up with concrete rubble (12' long bed, stake sides, dually rear axle, hydraulic dump) and had no problem going down the interstate. Might take a little bit longer, when compared to a Ford or Dodge diesel, getting up to speed, but it gets there and pulls fine:twocents:

That, and some of these engine, like the one we have, come with a NV4500 on the back:thumbsup:

Not a popular swap, but it would be a pretty cool/low key/different/quiet, smooth, and light transplant:twocents:
 

twmattox

Legacy Registered User
City
Arcadia
State
IN
#54
I installed a set of 3 point belts in an 82 Waggy a few years ago. There was a set of Capture nuts under the headliner. I went to the salvage yard and measured before cutting into the new headliner. Worked out well.:wave:
Not sure what year they started adding these capture nuts...but they are on all the late model GWs. Head over to ifsja for the measurements.
 

twmattox

Legacy Registered User
City
Arcadia
State
IN
#55
I have a '91 Waggy for parts that I can get the seat belts out of if you need them. They are the maroon color though.
If these are spoken for, I understand. But, if they are still available, please let me know. I bought a set from a guy once. His way of getting them out was to cut the mount...so they are useless.
 

twmattox

Legacy Registered User
City
Arcadia
State
IN
#56
I can't help but think you are right regarding the 360. A swap costs a lot of money. Any fuel savings will take a long time before they start yielding true money in pocket savings when considering a swap.

Things I would consider (and have for my GW):
Look over your electric choke circuit. I have read that this circuit does not pass through a fuse and if it grounds out can cause a decent fire.

Your intake is my personal favorite. You don't say which Edelbrock carb you have. Most people who get an Edelbrock seem to buy the 1406 (600cfm carb). Personally, even with a VE of 100% and running at 4000rpm, your CFM will only be around 420. Personally, I plan on an Edelbrock 1403 (500 cfm). Most people with a 360 prefer using a Holley (I don't know much about Holley numbers and what not).

The electrical system on these things is not always the best. I would recommend going through the engine bay looking for "crispy" wires and replacing them. Count on replacing the fuseable links while you are at it.

I can't say this enough, strongly consider an electric fuel pump. The fuel lines on these things are incredibly long. When you add in a mechanical pump, that is a long distance under negative pressure. Add in a little heat from the summer, summer electric fuel blends, and you are prime for vapor lock. Most people complaining of overheating issues or carburetor problems are actually having vapor lock issues.

Go over to ifsja and look at some articles by Ristow. There is a really good one about your distributor...how to better tune it to how you drive. Not to mention a ton of stuff about vacuum source for your dizzy, etc.

Finally, not sure where you stand on the whole emissions thing. My GW has fully functioning emissions (well, except for the Air pump...that I removed). There are a lot of people who remove all of it and report great results. Regardless, if you ditch it you need to adjust mixture and timing accordingly. If you keep it, make sure it all works correctly.

Guess that is mostly it... Well that and Good Luck!!!
 

bigwalton

Picture cravin' AK Postal nut
Staff member
SOA Member
City
Dexter
State
MI
#57
360 is a done deal unless something is wrong with the 727, then a motor/tranny swap gets more attractive. Made up my mind on this, enough swap daydreaming for me :banghead:

Headliner is coming down and therefore out. Thinking about spray on bedliner for a replacement. So finding the nuts won't be an issue.

Not sure on carb yet. It's quite new and has the tuning kit/jets, so I'll probably try to make a go of it.

I liked the manual choke I put on the Scrambler once I was used to it, probably do that again here. You just gave me a great reason.

The Scrambler taught me about crispy wires and that's tied to your comment on emissions, everything that can be stripped out will be and then I'll clean up what's left.

Electric pump is easy enough, I have to redo the tanks/fuel setup anyway. I have no interest in keeping the dual tanks and plan on using the Aero tank as the primary.

Can. Not. Wait. :angry:
 

Randyzzz

Blown Budget
LIFETIME
CJ-8.com Member
SOA Member
City
Redmond
State
OR
#58
Eric- check the link I sent you on the headliner. I think you'll be a lot happier with a regular headliner over bedliner. Plus you can hide some insulation and sound proofing above a regular headliner, the bedliner will be loud and cold... They're made out of a sheet material that can be rolled up for shipping, and once installed look as good as and are stronger than the original.

Make sure you seal all the roof rack screws from the inside. leaky screws/wellnuts are the main cause of the saggy headliner.
 

bigwalton

Picture cravin' AK Postal nut
Staff member
SOA Member
City
Dexter
State
MI
#59
I'll consider it, but I don't think this will see much cold weather use though, same as the Postal, parked once the snow/salt flies. I do hear you on the noise though.

The AC (what's left of it) is coming out and I was wondering about just pulling all of the heater box/core, etc. since it's likely original/old and just to clean up things as much as possible and simplify, simplify, simplify. I figure I can get a hot rod add on heater later like you did in the -8 if really needed.

My decision along with not swapping the engine for anything else, staying stock height (maybe even slightly low, the rear sag is growing on me the more I look at it as a kinda hot rod look :evil:) and going back to one gas tank is to make this as clean and utterly simple as humanly possible while staying safe/reliable and on a low budget. So if we pull the headliner and don't hate it too bad for noise, we may go without and do the bedliner.
 

Cincyjeeprs

CJ-8 Member
CJ-8.com Member
SOA Member
City
Cincinnati
State
Oh
#60
I'll consider it, but I don't think this will see much cold weather use though, same as the Postal, parked once the snow/salt flies. I do hear you on the noise though.

The AC (what's left of it) is coming out and I was wondering about just pulling all of the heater box/core, etc. since it's likely original/old and just to clean up things as much as possible and simplify, simplify, simplify. I figure I can get a hot rod add on heater later like you did in the -8 if really needed.

My decision along with not swapping the engine for anything else, staying stock height (maybe even slightly low, the rear sag is growing on me the more I look at it as a kinda hot rod look :evil:) and going back to one gas tank is to make this as clean and utterly simple as humanly possible while staying safe/reliable and on a low budget. So if we pull the headliner and don't hate it too bad for noise, we may go without and do the bedliner.
It WILL be noisy, like driving around inside a tin can. Especially 'cause the carpet will be gone too.
 
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